Thanks to all who have participated thus far.

From Randall Made Knives: The History of the Man and the Blades by Robert L. Gaddis, pp. 171-185

Quote:

---

For Bo, this all began on 25 November 1959 when two well-groomed men in casual attire showed up at the knifeshop beside his home. Later, when questioned about the visit, Bo remembered that the two were interested in a special knife with about a 5-inch, or at most 6-inch, blade. It had to be very strong, which wasn't any problem at this knifeshop, but it also had to be capable of storing a few itmes in a compartment of the handle. "Nobody's ever seen a knife like that!" Bo replied.

Then the men introduced themselves as Capt. Leroy Gordon Cooper, Jr., and Dr. William K. "Bill" Douglas from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Space Task Group. Suddenly realizing that he was talking to one of the well-publicized American astronauts and their team doctor, Bo "liked to have dropped dead!"

After regaining his composure, Bo brought out one of his Model 15 Airmen knives and related the story about its development for the Marine Corps as a pilot's survival knife. It was readily apparent to the NASA men that this design already came very close to meeting their requirements and that Bo was exactly the knifemaker they sought....

Besides looking over a finished Model 15 knife, Cooper and Douglas inspected some Solingen blades, without hilts or handles. At this point, all assumed the final knife would be carried on the space suits, so size and weight were major considerations. They discussed thinning the entire blade and probably the idea of a hiltless design also. Cutting out the center part of the tang would both reduce weight and creaet a cavity for matches and/or other small survival items. They ruled out the Model 15's green Tenite handle and considered the concept of a handleless style, with the blade tang wrapped in tape and fishing line....

This November 1959 visit was the first of numerous trips to the Randall knifeshop and residence. Between trips, they exchanged ideas and some experimental hardware by mail, and considered many alternatives before making their final decision. During this time, the Randall family hosted a number of the astronauts and became real friends in the process.

...By then, the guardless style was out, and the requirements for an extra-strong double hilt appeared to be in force. The sketch showed a relatively short 2 1/4-inch double hilt with reinforcing bolsters behind it. There was even a short bolt and nut through the bolsters and blade tang for added strength. A metal clip, 1 1/4 inches long, was shown over the blade point, extending back to cover the upper part of the blade tip. Pointing to this, a note, in writing not Bo's, stated: "Some type of clip that will clip over point for cutting suit after making hole with point." This one was sketched without handle slabs, and another handwriting added: "Could put small hacksaw blade under tape on handle." This effort was just another step along the path to their final knives....

On 25 May, Bo thought of something they all had missed and wrote to Cooper the next day. "Why not," asked Bo, "use stainless steel for the hilt to be certain of strength, then have it electrically welded in place? This will be sure of the hilt; also will have that much more room behind hilt for packing in items. O.K.?" He then drew a rough sketch of his idea on the following page of this letter. Later on that same day, he must have become convinced that this was the way to solve their hilt problems because he made a full-scale drawing of the hilt and tang portion of the Astro Knife, titling it "Astro Knife Handle Layout."

...On 6 December 1963, Cooper, accompanied by a Gemini Program astronaut, Tom Stafford, paid a surprise visit to the Randall residence. Bo was outside in the yard attending to some bit of business when they drove up unexpectedly. The two men stood talking for a few minutes by the front porch, when suddenly, and with any fanfare, Cooper reached into his pocket and brought out his Astro knife, the one that had been with him on his historic flight. He handed it to Bo, saying something to the effect that Bo had done so much for him and the other astronauts that he wished him to have this "space knife" as a personal thank you.

Bo said that he wasn't quite sure of Cooper's exact words because at the time he was overcome by emotion. Of all the knives in his extensive collection, this always was the one as far as Bo Randall was concerned. It was not placed in the museum until after his death. Bo kept it at home, in a specially made glass case.

---

The space program was such an important part of American history. President Kennedy's challenge to put a man on the moon and the space race with the Soviet Union inspired American astronauts and engineers to extraordinary feats. From the early Mercury program through John Glenn's historic orbit of the earth through the tragic deaths of White, Grissom and Chafe during the Apollo program through the moon landings, these men and women have persevered to bring us today to the space shuttle, the international space station and beyond. President Kennedy's challenge was fulfilled when Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins landed on the moon July 20, 1969. As Neil Armstong said, "That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

Lady and gentlemen, let's light this candle.
Kevin

Mid '90's Astro with mammoth ivory scales scrimshawed by Rick Bowles with the image of the original Mercury lauch vehicle, escape rocket, (which could not have been initiated and lauchced in sufficient time to save the astronauts had a catastrophic failure occurred at launch), and the Mercury space capsule.

Those guys certainly had the right stuff as do the men and women in our astronaut corps today.

Regards, Doug

That's REALLY special Doug...The Mammoth mottling makes it look like it's going through clouds on its way up.

Dubie

Dubie,
I'll bet Rick made those clouds.

Dubie, thanks, it is one of my favorite knives for what it represents, not to mention Rick's outstandfing interpretation.

Tom-You win that bet. Regards, Doug

I think this photo appropriately belongs in this thread first. Story to follow.

I was reading Rhett's green catalog last night and one statment stood out. There was a "carbon" #17 for sale there and the catalog states that less than 5 of these were made.

Can this be true? I know I have one and have seen pictures of at least two others. Anybody know the answer to this?

Thanks and regards.

I just received this Model 17 Astro, another great Randall Made Knife

Peter

Nice photos, Peter! And, that appears to be a waxed sheath.

Griff,

I do not think that is a correct statement, as I've owned more than 5 tool steel 17's myself. Here is one with brown micarta slabs....

5 carbon blade 17's can't be correct. I've owned two and still have one with black scales.

Here's a Mdl 17 I just got. It came with the Black Type "C" sheath.

Here's a better look at the overall profile, which I suspect is almost a Randall trademark by now.
Any ideas how many 17's were made and how popular they may be?
I'll bet they don't come close to many other Randall releases.
Nice mid-sized knife that's built like a tank and can probably chop/cut through almost anything.

I've wondered why RMK doesn't offer the Model 17 style handle on all the full tang models. The virtually useless channel cut in the tang could be eliminated and the handle slabs wouldn't need hollowed out, either. As a chargeable option, it would increase their profits because every RMK 'accumulator' worth their salt would need several knives with this option!
Any thoughts on this?

I would like to see one of these with the handle scales removed.

useless channel cut?

I was referring to the storage compartment in the tang of the Mod. 17. On page 178 of Bob Gaddis' book you can see it. (The catalog calls it a slot.)

It remains a clever idea but not terribly practical in the 21st century.

"Not terribly practical" sounds much more accurate than "useless". If you have read Bob's book or any of the history of the "Astro" you would/should know it was designed more for the 1960's space program (particularly..."Water Landings"...You know? "Spashdowns") and the possible "problems" that one might encounter. Hell: They issued gold coins and a S&W "Air Crewman" also. Probably not as "terribly practical" as a "Glock" today...but not "useless" either. Small fish hooks, line, split-shots, etc, could be stored in that tiny storage compartment, along with other things. With a small amount of imagination that small compartment could go from "useless" to life-saving in an armadillo heartbeat!!...Just sayin'
Best, Capt. Chris

The original 17's came with a screw loosener attached to the wrist thong. Any idea when RMK ceased providing these?
How popular is the Astro in terms of units produced annually?

'Virtually useless' was a poor choice of words--my bad!

I think the "4-way" screwdriver (ala...the one that used to come in the Colt flat boxes) are still available. One of these attached to the wrist thong would prove quite an asset...not "just" for turnin' the screws on the Astro handle, but for a cornucopia (How's that for a Thanksgiving segue?) of other things!
As far as numbers? I know the #17 is low in production numbers, but I can only tell ya' "my" numbers. I get about 6-8 per year...not many.
Best, Capt. Chris

I found a picture of an original Astro where the screwdriver was clearly shown, and made a copy of it out of brass. (I used brass not because it is easy to shape, but because it would not harm the machine screws holding the scales on the tang.) It works well; I filed the blade area so it would fit exactly into the screw slots. I'd be concerned that I would harm the screws with a steel screwdriver. Here's a picture...

Steve--great idea and looks very nice.

Any chance you are selling these?

no, sorry. I found an old brass freezer lock key; it was just the right shape to be filed down to size, so I have only the one.

Thanks Steve....I'll have to work one up....appreciate the idea.

Bo and Gary Randall look at Gordon Cooper's Model 17 which he carried on his Nasa Mission.

I "borrowed" the image from another post here and posted it into the Model 17 Forum.
If such piracy is not allowed, delete it and ban me...But not for long!

Where is the knife today and whats on the handle that's not on the current designs?

I thought that was gary and bo

The knife was or is at the shop in the display area. And what is on the handle is the NASA supplied keeper strap for the survival kit that the knife was attached to. 29r

Id's hopefully corrected.

Here's a pre-owned Model 17 I just got. Comparing it to my newer 17, the handle is noticeably thicker, and the hilt is more symetrical.


I didn't realize there were changes in the design, or is it just each unit is a little different since they are not on a mechanized assembly line?

I just had this conversation with Jason at RMK last week. The new Model 17s have a thinner handle, asymmetrical hilt and hump on the top of the blade. The old 17 looks more like a Model 15.

I can definitely see the difference on all 3 changes: The Blade Hump is much smaller, the hilt is almost mirror-imaged, and the micarta handle is either less rounded or a bit thicker.
As a carrier/user..I like the thicker handle, it makes it feel like a much "bigger" knife than the thinner, new-style handle.

Any explanation why the changes and which is closer to the actual "Flight Spec'd Astro"..any idea how old it may be?

The older knife is closer to the flown version. I asked why the changes were made and I was told it was because the shop was just making improvements. I really like the hump on the blade, but the thinner handle is inconvenient.

David the original 17's had a hump. These newer Have what I refer to as a breast or a tit. They look, to me, goofy as hell. I don't understand why they made this change. I have asked that question on many occasions and have never received the first reply. The catalog compares this current knife to the original 17's. There is no comparison. They are 2 different knives. Blade, handle, and the guard are all different. Personally I would like to see them made the old way with the gentle slope or hump. However to this day nobody from RMK has called me and asked my opinion and I don't think that is likely to happen.
I was planning on getting in on the bidding on the astro tune fink posted but today I ran across an original and incredibly rare WWII USMC Para Marine Knife and purchased it. So I'm out of the race for this remarkable 17.

Info is appreciated greatly.
I agree, the look and feel is completely different.
While the hump and hilt are more cosmetic differences, imho, the thicker handle gives the knife a much more solid feel as a user.
I have big hands and the grip is much better to hold onto. If I put it to heavy use, would be much better to handle heavier chores.
Fascinating history/changes.
Again, any idea how old the earlier version is and when did they re-design the 17?

Doc I believe the change on the blade came about in the early maybe mid 90's. The handle just sort of morphed into what we now see. As always there is someone here with much more knowledge and keeps up with those changes. When the blade shape changed on the 17's I lost interest in any new 17's. I am always looking for an astro but I want a carbon blade late 60's knife and that's gonna cost me.

I actually like the newer hump on the top of the blade. It is very useful for prying.

On the other hand, the thinner handle doesn't give you much leverage and it's not practical for holding much for survival. I find this very frustrating. I own a Model 18 5.5' and it is my least favorite Randall knife. The balance between the handle and blade is way off and the blade feels stubby compared to the handle. A thicker handled Model 17 would be the best of both worlds.

I love the Astro, but unfortunately, the thin, narrow handle has always been a deal breaker for me.

Tom, try to find an older, thick-handled 17..it really makes a big difference, imho, in the utility and feel of the knife.
It needs a thicker handle for any real use...and the extra "bearing surface" makes it better for heavier use by anyone with larger hands.

It was made for outerspace where weight is a serious concern. I forget how much it cost to put each pound into space but it was a alot.

With that being said I also have no interest in the model 17. In fact I only have interest in a few Randall models, the model 5 and 14 and the 16 SF

"It was made for outerspace where weight is a serious concern"

Then why was the heavier-handled one flight=spec'd by Nasa and why were they thinned out after the Mercury program was well-over? Did they think if they thinned the handle, it might make it on Apollo or the Space Shuttle?

By the time they thinned it, was NASA even considering re-authorizing it's use on new missions?

The "17" is an icon and obviously not for everybody.

Having covered the space program and Nasa, it's a great piece of history for me.

Is the Astro's tang the same width as the #14? 7/8"? Too bad it isn't the same width as its own ricasso, which could equate to greater comfortable and more storage.

Tom
There is no reason you can't make a different handle for a modern 17 as it will not void the warranty as the handle is removable. I made a new one with ironwood, but you could slot some micarta or G10 and even have finger grips or a border patrol handle if you like.

Peter

WHAT A SURPRISE!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously Peter ... that's the best looking #17 I've ever seen!

Very nice..GREAT Idea.
I bet Micarta/finger grips would look great too.
NASA Micarta would be right at home too....are you following this thread Capt. Chris?

That really looks good Peter!

Cliff Lacey
RKS #23

I had always thought the handle was thin and the guard large to accomodate the bulky gloves that the astronauts wore.

Jon

That looks so nice! Peter you are the Ironwood King.

WOW!!
Peter, i'm really impressed...that's the most stylish survival knife i've ever seen!!
best,

Oh yes there is, Peter. I'm not much of a craftsman. Heck, I'm still trying to master the toaster oven.

Seriously, though, I've often thought a "custom" Astro handle would be an ideal modification. Your handle is beautiful. Great job! Are you for hire?

Thanks Tom
Unfortunately, at the rate I work I could only let me charge about 10 cents an hour. I am pretty sure that folks like Jim or James Behring or Gene Beal could rehandle a model 17 to your tastes for a reasonable cost since they do a lot of custom work.
I just fool around a little so it took me many hours to make my handles
Let us know if you have a custom handle made

Peter

You know, Tom, when you put new handles on an Astro, you don't have to stop at the "standard" narrow scale size--instead, you can put a slotted handle on, similar to the one on the Model 15! Here's a picture of mine...

Steve,

I figured that could be done as well. Thanks for posting an example. Neat looking knife, for sure, with a comfortable handle. How do you take the handle off with it having a lined thong hole?

Steve,
I was going to mention this knife earlier. I'm glad you brought it back. Thanks. Who did the work? I have a serious need for a craftsman to slot material and plan on making some handles very similar to yours. I'm thinking...Bone Linen Micarta...NASA G-3 and G-10...Ya'll get my drift?
Nice work, Capt. Chris
PS: Gene beal has done ivory scales for me for 2 Astros...Outstanding...CCS

Tom,
I'll bet it's lined from either side...Just a guess.
Good question, Capt. Chris

You're probably correct - each side has its own liner. You're always thinking, Captain.

Sorry, but the picture is not exactly how the knife turned out--I should have explained when I posted it. Fact is, this was a concept picture to show the handle maker what I was looking for. The actual finished product is slightly different, and the thong hole is not there. I was away from home for a while, and didn't have the picture of the final knife when I posted. I'm trying to post the picture now.

[note to Capt. Stanaback: The handle work was difficult enough that the maker said he wouldn't do another one, and asked not to be identified.]

ASTRO MODIFICATION

As you can see, the tang of the Astro was too long to fit the standard-size slotted block I got from Treeman, so it had to remain showing beyond the handle. I have debated drilling the protruding tang to fit a thong, but do not want to do anything that might be considered a change by Gary and the Shop.
(In the picture I cleverly(?) laid the thong over the exposed tang, and probably shouldn't have.)

Looks like Ebay has a "Mint" Brown Micarta, tool steel 17 for sale...$2495.
Seller's out of Orlando.
Nice Old Knife...waaaay too rich for my taste.
Assuming it's tool steel since it is not stamped "S".

This one's been hangin' around. Ivory has to be fitted for each individual knife...just like a Colt SA Army!
Enjoy: Capt. Chris

Nice looking knife, Captain.

Consider using these instead of plain straight-slot screws:
http://www.coastfab.com/images/pdf/2010/bolts_nas1102.pdf
They would add an exotic look to a very fine knife.

Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ

Feb 20th....John Glenns' 50th Space Flight Anniversary

Feb 20th, 1962

Also the anniversary of the first Spaceknife qualified to fly in a mission by Nasa.

Both an accomplishment never to be forgotten.

Especially John Glenns'.

But the Randall 17 remains a piece of history we mere mortals can own and wonder about.

Capt..
WoW!!!
:-)Rocky

Very nice Captain.....I think some of that NASA Brown would also be very "fitting".

I have posted this one in a few places, but maybe not here. This is one of my Astros so far. I remain convinced that there is somewhere a space-flown sheath besides the "slot" in the very early Mercury survival kits. I do not believe that the leather sheath would ever have been flown due to flammability issues. I have a very good selection of period MILSPEC aerospace fabrics and webbing, but need a starting point. This image does not show the screwdriver.
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag133/toadboy65/astro_zpsf2ab4492.jpg

My MINT Model 17 "Astro"....

Unreal, looks like it came out of the Randall safe!!

Pap

To heck with that. Do you build STG-44's?????

I came across the information by accident when looking for a model 17.



Kennedy Space Center Visitor Complex is located in Central Florida, just one small step from Orlando and Daytona Beach.

Many of you live in Florida.
How about to go out there and do some quality photos for the forum?
Unless, of course, it's not burdensome.

I am currently working on the Kennedy Space Center project and that knife is one of the objects I got to handle. It is truly beautiful. If you'd like, i can get some pictures once it has been installed.

That would be fantastic!

My new Model 17. It has a nickel silver hilt with a carbon blade. Riveted Johnson Sheath. Interestingly the original owner not only had their name etched but also had the exact time and date Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon. Question, does anyone know when the RMK shop stop using stainless hilts and started using nickel silver on the Astro?

I'm guessing this knife was made around 1975?

Hi,

How come??? I thought that the Randall Astro blade was only available in stainless steel. (Beautiful knife by the way)

Stratos

Eric,

The current catalog indicates that is is still a stainless steel hilt. What makes you think this one is NS?

Tune, Not sure why it has a nickel silver hilt. I know a magnet will not stick to it but does stick to the exposed tang of the handle. So the hilt can't be steel. Just wondered when the shop offered these in Nickel Silver hilts?

Not all stainless steel is magnetic.

Maybe somebody will chime in and remind us which stainless steel is used for the hilt on the Model 17.

Larry

Stratos, I am told RMK made some Carbon Blade Model 17's in the 60's and 70's. Thanks for the kind words, I most like that it has a Model 15 like blade shape.
I wondered if Jeoffrey E. Wynne worked for NASA at one time.

There were a few 17's made with NS hilts, but yours is unlikely one of them. The hilt on your knife is too tall for NS and is typical for one made of stainless steel. Some very early 17's had even taller hilts than your knife has., as shown below.

Thanks, Joe, All the Stainless steel I have sticks to a magnet, whatever stainless steel they used on this knife's hilt does not, another first for me. I love learning about these, thanks again.

what is the measurement of the hilt?

from appearances, I would say no. The NS hilts I have seen were noticeably abbreviated relative to SS.

IIRC, any NS hilt Astros were later knives, say 80's maybe. Don't recall ever seeing one from the 60's.

Thanks for the info. Each days I learn something in this forum. I adore

Not sure which stainless steel is used on the 17 hilt, but 400 series stainless steel is magnetic and 300 series stainless steel is non-magnetic. Many custom knifemakers use 303 stainless for fittings.

In regards to the hump on the early Astros evolving to the harpoon tip of later Astros, I called RMK and asked why and when it changed. They deny there's any difference to the profile.

Nope. Nothing new to see here!

I have never gotten an answer to that question either Bill. But a blind man can see the difference between then and now. The new 17’s make no sense to me. You may as well call a Pro Thrower a Smithsonian Bowie.

Oh and I really, really like that knife.

I got this Astro from Perry Miller quite a while ago. It has the slightest hint of a “hump” but certainly no “harpoon” tip. Can anyone tell me when it was made?

Can we see a shot of the sheath?

Tight stitches, so maybe mid 60's to late 70's?

Yeah I would say 70’s. I think it was not long after that period that they started screwing then up.

Thanks, Ronnie.

The newer Model #17's, despite rounds of disapproval here, were an improved version of the more subtle design on earlier models. The purpose was to afford an extremely "safe" usage with the Astronaut's "Space Gloves" on. They could press down on the back spline and the front "notched area" would prevent their gloved hand from slipping down on the tip.
Hope this helps, Capt. Chris

After seeing the controversy surrounding the new movie about Neil Armstrong, "First Man" where they leave out the planting of the American flag...I revisited the Model 17 Astro thread. I don't quite understand your post Capt Chris when you state

" were an improved version of the more subtle design on earlier models. The purpose was to afford an extremely "safe" usage with the Astronaut's "Space Gloves" on. They could press down on the back spline and the front "notched area" would prevent their gloved hand from slipping down on the tip.
Hope this helps, Capt. Chris"

I thought the catalog Astro was made as a Replica of the original knives used in project Mercury. Your statement seems to indicate that research and development is still going on with this knife. Is NASA planning on using this knife in future manned missions?

I too would have thought that Randall would have kept to the original look of that early 1960's Astro with the contoured top clip. It seems odd that it seemed to evolve in design when it was catalogued as a Replica.

In the 1985 catalog it seems to have that "harpoon" look to the top spine. Then in the 1988 catalog the term "replica" was dropped. It's just interesting that it was offered as a Replica of the knives that made history, but they continued to evolve. I guess it makes those early ones that people own more special.

Exactly right Freeman 1901.

I just realized that if you grind that little kink off you would have a blade that closely resembled the old humpbacks. Grind it at an angle and it would be perfect. Then it would look close to the originals. Can someone here do that with photoshop on the knife pictured here?

That Astro you posted Ronnie has a very pronounced cutout on the top. It looks like the upside down longer choil of that knife.
Is that your Astro pictured? I would like to make it to the Randall museum and see the Gordon Cooper Astro that was presented back to Mr Randall.

If you just cut the top (and it becomes like a #16), then there will not be a cutting edge on the top view. Then you have to redo the upper blade, it's already harder to replicate the original finish + it takes a lot of skill to remove the painted metal neatly, 1 mistake and knife is spoiled (outwardly, for work it still suits).

p.s.
I took one of the photos of the old Astro of one of the members here to show the difference. I hope he does not mind, if not, I will delete the photo and apologize.

p.p.s.
I think I understand why the word replica was used for a while, the original had a very large guard and for non-astronauts it would be very uncomfortable (If only a person is not fond of medieval weapons and uses it))

No that’s the Astro posted earlier. I would not own one like that.....unless it was given to me. Then I would do as I stated. I would grind that awful tit off.

https://www.randallmadeknife.com/1993-knives-illustrated/
here on the first photo there is this form of harpoon

Ronnie, I think the picture that desert snake posted of the modern Astro was photo shopped to take that offset down to make it look like the older Astro.

It's obvious that Mr Randall was ok with the evolution and update of the blade. It was done while he was still in charge, so who am I to say.
What throws me off I think is that it was marketed from the start as a "replica" and we know the definition of the word.

rep·li·ca
ˈrepləkə/Submit
noun
an exact copy or model of something, especially one on a smaller scale.

It's ironic that most of the other models are more replicas of the earliest models of themselves than the Astro which was sold as a replica.

It would be cool to be able to order an Astro with a model 16 grind. It would be closer to the original Astro. Without the sawteeth of course.

Richard

Does anyone know when Randall started putting the offset on the spine? Looking at the catalogs, they used the same photo from the beginning until the 26th printing in 1982, then a new photo in 27th printing 1985 with the offset on the spine. The 27th printing, 1985 was the last time that the "replica" reference was used.

It's just odd that Capt Chris noted that:

"The newer Model #17's, despite rounds of disapproval here, were an improved version of the more subtle design on earlier models."

I read in Mr Gaddis' book that the Mercury Astronaut Gordon Cooper was involved in the design with Mr Randall, and the knives that went into space "WAS the improved version" of earlier designs that Mr Gaddis' illustrated.
To make design adjustments after the fact of history just doesn't make sense, coupled with the claim of it being marketed as a replica.
I agree with you Ronnie, the early version, the replica is the one I would have. From what I have read, the early replica began changing on both the blade and handle in the mid to late '60's right? The late '60's the blade began to look more like a model 15 to me. Did they leave the top edge dull, like the original, or did they start sharpening? Then on the handle butt end they began to square off a former rounded end.
Have you seen any of the early replicas for sale? I think that will be on my dream list. Do you own one Ronnie?
Thanks
Richard

My statement of "improved" was because of the fact that the more predominant (exaggerated, if you will) top security blade shaping made the blade safer to use with gloves...nothing more...nothing else.
Hope this helps, Capt. Chris

Thanks Capt Chris. Do you know approx when that top security blade shaping started?
Thanks
Richard

This is an Astro I think pre 1972 judging the small rivets, by this time the top clip was angled like a model 15, the hilt was shorter and thicker, the handle end was still rounded like the original.
Has the Astro always had a stainless hilt?



Richard

This photo seems to indicate that the late '60's early '70's version remained into the sheaths without rivits.
Did the top security blade shaping happen before the more square butt handle, or did both features happen at same time?

Following the discussion in general, a couple of thoughts.

Let's give RMK some slack on the use of the word "replica." In general, it can be taken to mean that the Model 17's they were offering to the public were made to be similar to those made for the space program--after all, these knives were not the "same" knives that they made for the government.

Also, we might allow for the fact that designs of most models have evolved over the years. For whatever reasons--maybe some refinements based on user feedback, tweaking the aesthetics of the original design, etc.

This just gives diehard collectors more things to dwell on, discuss and argue about, and more knives to chase as they try to gather example of all variants!

Larry

Larry, I'm not sure what you mean about the knives "were not the same as the ones used by the Govt." Other than the rhodium plating that the NASA knives got, and maybe a little larger cavity cutout, I believe the early ones were identical. O1 tool steel and brown micarta. Those early replicas were the same. Even the tall thinner SS hilt.
I don't think it's a matter of giving Randall knives slack, it's just after the first few years they weren't replicas anymore, and they eventually stopped using the replica language.
There are those who are purests and if they admirred the original space knife and wanted one that looked like it....well that's what they would seek out.
I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative, but it seems the discussion has gone on a long time, and some people are purists, I put myself in that place, and from what I gather Ronnie prefers the early Astros too.
True enough about product evolution and feedback over the years making changes. That happens in all industries.
All in all it just makes those early true replicas that much more special. Rare too. I have been watching of late and those mid 60's Astros in brown micarta seem to be as rare as hens teeth.

Richard

I see the term "replica" being thrown around quite a bit. Although the RMK catalog may have used the term early on, I don't think it should be taken in the literal sense.

The early brown 17's are the same knife the Astronauts used for all practical purposes. Whether they be the Solingen training knives NASA acquired or the hand forged astronaut "issue" pieces.

The change in the blade grind is not appealing to some folks. To net it out, the current model 17 in most respects holds little resemblance to the earlier pieces.

I agree crutchtip. To illustrate my point I have put 3 photos of the Astro together. The top is Gordon Cooper's Astro, the middle is a mid '60's brown micarta, the bottom is from the current catalog.
The top 2 are very close, which a "replica" should be.
The bottom is similar, but not a replica.
I'm glad that Randall knives dropped the replica advertisement years ago, because the bottom knife imo is not a replica.

Freeman 1901,

I own probably a dozen old Astro's, including the one in your photograph, P-74 from the 1991 "Green" catalog. I have brown Micarta, black micarta, no handles, both Orlando and Solingen blades, and a few of the newer blade design models. I too appreciate the earlier blade design without the "guthook" spine. Ronnie knows some of my knives..

Tattoo Bill,
I know from seeing the earliest Randall Catalog that they were made without scales. I haven't seen one yet. Do you have a picture of one?
Richard

Very few if any really left the shop without scales. That is a myth that for some reason folks keep talking about. It more than impractical w/o scales. It is barely practical with scales, a very small handle. Anyone can take an early Astro and take the scales off. Wa la, an Astro w/o scales. Much to do about nothing.

Bill's brown is the "production" knife probably circa 64-65.

Below is one that I recently picked up that belong to a Mercury Program doctor and John Glenn's personal doctor. You will note the differences in the handle color, bolt placement, and block Randall lettering.

Here is the description from a 1963 Randall catalog. Interesting that Bo considered it a future potential collectors item..

Joe is dead on in the date of my brown micarta example. It has the later color brown handles.

I do, but some turd deletes my posts.....check my signature below.

I am the turd Bill.

Cap said no cross posting. That has been the rule here for a while. When asked for pictures, you sent the guy to essentially another forum. Sending him to your website is fine..... Just not not another forum. Thats been the law here for years. I don't make the rules, just moderate to them.

Let's keep it respectful. Deal?

Tunefink, I assume that earlier reply that I must have missed was meant for me? Sorry I missed it.
Another source for learning about vintage Randall's? I would assume there are other forums, but why would there be an attempt to block, to deny me another source for learning more about Randall's?
Didn't know that went on on this site.
I assume by cap you are referring to Capt Stanaback?

Richard

Yes Freeman, I am responding directly to you. Check out my website and ask about my knives there please.

Ok. Thanks.

No it won’t look like a 16 if you grind the tit at an angle....like I said. It will leave a hump.

You bet he does!

How many astronauts are using the current 17’s in space?

That's what my impression was on it from Cap Stanaback with his response, like the research and development was still going on because of continued usage by the space program.
It was designed primarily by Mr Randall and Gordon Cooper, put into production, used for intended purpose, became part of history, a relic of an amazing part of our nations history.
It just is odd that it's evolution continues considering it's intended purpose was as an offering to collectors who wanted a replica of the astronaut knife.
In hind sight, I guess it makes those early replicas more special and sought after.
Richard

Agree with everything you have said Richard. I have been saying it for years.

What Tunefink didn't mention was that this rule was passed made by Rick T. the owner of this forum. He & Rhett started this forum together and cross-foruming has "always" been forbidden. Not my rule Bill: His..."BUT"...I agree with it.
As to this #17 being made and to continually be made after it's intent was obviously to make it collectible? Freeman: I think not. It's all typical of models being slightly modified over time...and (throw in) damned good marketing as well!
I can most certainly plainly see why Ronnie's "hated hook" blade would be safer when working with gloves on, whether Astronauts were using it...or "Usn's"!
Please everyone: Let's keep it respectable and polite.
Thanks, Capt. Chris

Gary Clinton and I had an interesting discussion about this oldie from The Captain's "STASH"....for your viewing pleasure.
Stay sharp, Capt. Chris

Capt. I have the match to yours. Mine is in a riveted Johnson ruff back sheath.

Is it a "splitback"?

I must be in the minority for liking the "humpback" shape.

Let me know when they offer that for the Mdl 18 as well.

Chris this is a great thread and I haven’t seen or read anything disrespectful or not polite. I thought this was just a discussion between a few folks who liked the old original Mod. 17’s.
On the other hand, that is a beautiful Mod. 17 you have. I guess ironworker thinks your sheath is Kydex. No offense to ironworker.

Not all the model c riveted sheaths are split back. Mine is not. Thanks for the kind words ronnie

The only disrespect I saw was calling Mitchell "a turd" and just want everyone to do what we are doing now. A nice "show-n-tell", etc., etc.
Yeah: It's one of the nicer and most clean versions of an Astro I have ever owned (and still own it), thanks.
Capt. Chris

I didn’t see that so that must have been deleted but for the record and for the benefit of all the members here I did not call Mitchell a turd. It wasn’t me. I can’t believe someone would call him a turd. I have not noticed him ever doing anything turdy. I have purchased a bunch of knives from Mitchell and he has never been a turd. So whoever called Mitchell a turd I would like to say......Mitchell is not a turd.

No one suggested it was you Ronnie. Read page #12 of this thread...and then, let's all move on.
Best, Capt. Chris

I did find this Model 17 image in a 1978 RMK Catalog.

If Mitchell is a "turd", then call me one too, I'll be in good company.

My post is removed, LOL It wasn't a pretty picture to look at indeed, Haha

I know that Chris.....I was just trying to be funny. It’s a flaw in my character.

I have the same flaw Ronnie, it used to get me in a lot of trouble when I was in school.

Same here Sphinx. I stayed in trouble. But I believe it.....humor, makes the world a little bit better place.

100% agreed!

Has anyone agreed on the approximate number of tool steel Astros after all this time? I’ve read there were 5 made several times, but Miles has owned at least 5 himself. Any educated guesses?
Thanks,
Brad

Lot more than 5.

17, Astro, 03 by Jedi, auf Flickr

17, Astro, 06 by Jedi, auf Flickr

17, Astro, 05 by Jedi, auf Flickr

Picked up this 17, not sure if it would be considered a separate "S" or not, I'm guessing it falls somewhere in the 74-89 era,stone is unmarked, what do you think.

Nice get, regardless. Minty as well.

Pap

Thanks Mike

I am guessing 68-69. Brown Micarta. I think it is stainless even though the S is missing

First itineration of the logo "S" stamp.



Brown micarta was done well before 1969, by 4 years or so. Everything else points to a few years earlier than you are thinking, to include the stone. That sheath easily could have been could have been 1966, possibly a bit earlier, as the transition away from harness rivets at the throat was in effect. Good looking knife that knife came with brown, but it had to be the latest one ever!

Being a #17, probably during that time frame of the Viet Nam war, probably not many were being ordered, so brown scale material was probably still floating around as the transition to the "veined green" black micarta had been well underway.

You can check to see if it is unmarked stainless, which would be very uncommon for the period. My guess is not, but take a q-tip and dip it lightly in a bit of cold bluing solution, and dab it on the top of the spine our underneath of the choil. If stainless, it won't take and kind of sits there. If carbon, it will turn immediately. It the latter, a dab of Flitz or some similar product on the other end of the Q-tip will remove the slight discoloration.

Thank you Joe. I will use your test to see if it is carbon.

James and Eric, outstanding knives! Congrats.
James your pictures, as usual, are very nice.
And, as usual, the education continues. This place is a wealth of information for sure!
Thanks
Walker