Ron, that line was painful to read, very.
But even in this short line, the most knowledgable people are all over the map with basic facts. It does not engender confidence about the opinions on whether Lt. Col. Salvo’s knife is-or-isn’t one of the original 20, or 30, or 36 or 55.
Jack, the original order was for 20 knives to be used in survival training, period. No debate, no maybe, no what if. These were Solingen blades, whereas the 9 made for the astronauts plus 1 ‘doctor knife” were Orlando forged blades.
To ease your mind, let’s just assume all of these Solingen blades etched with the block letter RMK “logo” as on Salvo’s knife were “made for NASA” . We just don’t know for sure in what capacity except for the first 20 pieces. Fair enough? According to Gaddis, the next order of 25 was for the Gemini program. The last order of 15 does not indicate any particular use or purpose.
Perry, that statement declaring "not likely" for reasons... is tailor made to drive me to drink. What reasons?
There are at least two knives with identical sheaths from this period, Salvo’s and Grissom’s. Either they are from the original <30> or they are not. I really don’t care if the sheath was made by Sadaam Hussain… but to me, what is important is the provenance of the Salvo knife-sheath combo.
Jack, those are the standard sheaths for the model 15. It would stand to reason that Grissom’s knife (an Orlando blade) and Salvo’s knife (a Solingen blade) would have the same “C” style sheath that was available to RMK, and that they had been using since 1954 first from Clarence Moore, then Heiser, and lastly Maurice Johnson.
Still, regarding Mr. Stockman and Mr. Randall:
Starting with sheaths, to disqualify the possibility that Stockman made these sheaths, everything that was printed has to be false: 1. Expert leather craftsman; 2. Sheaths for Randall; 3. Visit from Astronauts; 4. Statement of Astronauts.
You need to consider the source of the printed material.
- Was Mr. Stockman and friend and associate of Mr. Randall or not?
As Perry stated.
• Either Stockman was a skilled craftsman or he was not. The fact that he was a well known high end leather craftsman makes me wonder why he would produce crude and misshaped sheaths for Randall. Geezzzz - I could do a better job making some of the sheaths that are attributed to Stockman … so … what evidence is there that those monstrosities were made by Stockman?
Known in that vein to whom? Skilled at some things, and maybe not as much at others? The “
monstrosities” as you call them are Stockman sheaths.
• Did some Astronauts visit and thank Mr. Stockman for his sheaths? Either they did, (and the sheaths were nice), or someone is lying. There certainly is some anecdotal evidence that certain Astronauts did visit Mr. Randall thus COULD have visited Mr. Stockman: “...On 6 December 1963, Cooper, accompanied by a Gemini Program astronaut, Tom Stafford, paid a surprise visit to the Randall residence…”
There is evidence that Stockman made at least one sheath for the prototype hiltless Astro for Gordon Cooper. Beyond that, you are depending on some “
anecdotal evidence” that might better be described as shall we say, “sketchy”? No one knows for sure if Stockman supplied more than one sheath, but I can say with reasonable certainty, if he did, they were simple "A" style sheaths and not a riveted "C" style with a lift-a-dot keeper.
• For that matter, given Mr. Randall’s attention to detail, I wonder why he would ship crude and misshapen sheaths to the US Astronauts on short notice.
They may not have been the best, but in a pinch, they worked.
• What was the time window for these sheaths with the cross-wise stamp, compared to the known provenance of the original knives? Obviously at least two knives have comparable sheaths so “sheath-later” rather than “sheath-delivered-with-kinfe” seems less likely.
I have covered this in several articles in the RKS newsletter as well as on this forum. Perhaps the search button will reveal those discussions. In a nutshell, for collecting purposes and without any evidence to point otherwise, all sheaths with the RMK stamp are considered to be Johnson sheaths. Due to the football shape, the the logo in the horizontal orientation did not fit on smaller sheaths, so it went vertical. You of course are free to think whatever you like.
Other questions: How many knives, total, presumably similar to Salvo-Grissom, were delivered to NASA? Documentation? There is a lot of contradiction (see below), even in this line. Were or were these not delivered with sheaths? If delivered with sheaths, what characteristics to they exhibit that disqualify the sheaths as “Stockman?” It seems to me that the only thing that disqualifies them is a set of assumptions about what a “Stockman sheath” looked like. Is there hard evidence or is it all speculation and circumstantial?
Again, two different knives, but Perry covered it in his post. We know the first 20 were ordered with sheaths, just don't know for sure they were all delivered with sheaths but should assume they were.
Other unknown factors (to me) come to mind because I’m relatively uninformed about facets of the history of original Randall model 15/17s:
Get the books!!!!
When was the original batch of knives delivered – I assume mid 1960? Is there a documented date, or dates?
Perry covered this
• Did Johnson make sheaths that were close in appearance to Heiser’s with the rivet keeper, in 1960 - or whenever the original batch of knives was delivered? How do we know this? Appearance is not enough to positively identify maker and would be tossed out of court as speculation.
Possibly, but my
guess is most of the first sheaths were Heiser model “C” sheaths
IF they were shipped with sheaths. Maurice Johnson moved to the Orlando area in 1958, so he was around. Don’t know if Stockman made a cheaper type sheath or not for the first 20 knives. Gaddis does not give the indication that he did.
Could or would Heiser have produced a small batch of <30> sheaths on short notice for the Astronaut knives? Yes or no.
They were probably already in stock.
• If Salvo’s knife, and Grissom’s knife are not from the “first batch,” where is an example of the “first batch,” including sheath?
Which Grissom knife? The LB7 Solingen, or the Orlando personal knife?
• I at first thought the knife to be stainless. Are claims about Rhodium plating, and ability to identify same, made by folks knowledgeable in metallurgy? Imagine a line of questioning in court about one’s metallurgy expertise….
RHODIUM PLATED. FACT.
Furthermore, I originally thought Salvo’s knife to be stainless because of the obvious hard-long use (Westmoreland’s knife was on his hip 100 days per year for 4 years and looks better than Salvo’s) and lack of pitting and rust evidence – however, could the knife have had steel wool applied? If not is it plated? In light of Perry Miller’s statement below – about “some” knives (my interpretation, “not all knives) were plated?
“
Obvious long hard use” is a stretch. Maybe he just simply took care of his knife. Your views contradict. He was Air Force and not a PJ, so unlikely humping out in the bush. Someone said it says “case worker” all over it. The photographs indicate light to moderate use. Blade is full, shows signs of sharpening and has some scratches, but IMO not hard use.
• Is Grissom’s knife-sheath plated?
Can’t tell by the photo, but would assume so.
• I assume someone has the original order for these knives specifying Rhodium plating… is this correct? How many knives?
NASA might and RMK has records. Don’t know the answer as to how many for sure except the 20 survival knives, and the 9+1 Orlando blades.
If a subject board is to be more than just an exchange between a few insiders, it would help people like me, with my compulsive personality disorder, if the basis for declarative statements were footnoted. But maybe I’m asking too much.
You are, but you could satisfy your OCD by getting some good reading material.
Differences of opinion exist in every field. But debate usually turns on evidence. Here are some of the posts that have caused confusion, just in this line. These are not intended to embarrass or attack anyone, just to try to understand some of the contradictions inherent in subject.
This is the type delivered to NASA with the intended use for survival training. The etched name "logo" is how they were all marked. They were also Rhodium plated. [my not, "all?"] There was on order of 20, with possibly some others as private purchase or perhaps "gifts" to NASA officials. I don't know if this is one of the 20 or not. I have only seen one other such as this in private hands. My guess is the Grissom knife not from the LB7 is also one of these
An error/typo on my part. I meant that the Grissom knife from the LB7
is one of this type of knife, a Solingen blade and one of the first 20.
“… he has misinterpreted what he read, because it has been stated clearly that this is probably not one of the original 20 knives sent to NASA for survival training in Arizona. If it is not Rhodium plated (which it doesn't appear to be from the close up photo of the etching) then it is most likely not one of the 20 NASA "survival" knives …”
That is correct relative to the 20 knives sent for survival training.
I've studied the Astro's more than any other Model and, sadly, there isn't much information on the very early one's. NASA placed more than one order and there were around 3 dozen shipped to them, most, if not all, with no sheath. As far as I know they were all carbon blades and most all were made from Soligen blades. The one up for auction looks to be a Soligen. At least some were Rhodium plated but it doesn't look like the one up for auction was one of them.
My note: if Grissom’s knife-sheath is one of the original 20, isn’t it reasonable to assume Salvo’s knife-sheath is also?
Grissom’s is an Orlando blade, his LB7 knife one of the first 20 Solingen's, and Salvo’s a Solingen in my opinion from a subsequent NASA order. The sheaths
appear to be the same make from what can be seen in the photos.
And this about the number of “original” model 15-17 knives, and about sheaths:
I've studied the Astro's more than any other Model and, sadly, there isn't much information on the very early one's. NASA placed more than one order and there were around 3 dozen shipped to them, most, if not all, with no sheath.
[quote]"
No sheaths were delivered with the NASA survival training knives. The Salvo sheath - a Johnson - was IMO delivered with this knife. It is a stock sheath so not a big deal."
But then the post was apparently edited to read
…Sheaths were requested with the NASA survival training knives…
I corrected myself to say they were ordered with sheaths, but don’t know that all were shipped with sheaths. Sheaths were not required for all the knives because they were mounted in the survival pack as photographed.
So… what could we do to see if Lt. Col. Salvo’s knife one of the original 20 or <30> or 36?
It has been stated more than once it is from the first “batch”, but I don’t believe at this point it is one of the 20 survival knives. With two other orders by NASA of 25 and 15 knives respectfully, I think it falls in one of those two blocks. This would also explain the Johnson sheath.
1. Find the purchase order and since the U.S. Government doesn’t usually give things away without a signed issue order, find that. Or,
2. find another knife-sheath of unambiguous provenance to the early period.
I think I will E-mail Sen. John Glenn.
Regards.
There ya go, you have found the path to take to try and answer some of your questions. Sounds like a good project, and I am curious as to what you find.
Jack, I don’t want to seem condescending and please don't take it as such, but several folks have put too much time into this thread explaining things to you over and over, and yet you want to rehash and beat the horse to death. Get some good books, Gaddis, Hunt 1, 2, and 3, and Clinton/Hamilton. Read them. Study the text and photos. You say you like to research, then start there.
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