I am glad this thread got back on track.

There is allot to cover.

The handle seems to be of concern and here is my take. The beveled edges, which they all had by the way, are irregular, which is not atypical, so I do not see anything out of the ordinary for the period when this knife was made. You will notice on the reverse side the handle bevels are also a bit exaggerated at the rear of the handle as they are at the grip on the obverse (logo) side. This leads me to believe Mr. Salvo received it this way from RMK.

Blade material. None, I repeat, none of the knives delivered to NASA were stainless steel. They were Rhodium plated carbon steel. This has been covered several times on this forum over the years. The search button can be your friend. The Salvo knife does not appear to be Rhodium plated, but it is difficult to tell for sure without the knife in hand.

Stainless versions of the Astro were not available until a few years later, and I don't recall ever seeing one with brown micarta scales. This knife is a Solingen blade by the way, another clue to the non-stainless composition.

The “sway back” blade is actually pretty common on early Solingen 18’s of both blade lengths, so it is not too surprising to see this in the Astro.

Sheaths were requested with the NASA survival training knives. The Salvo sheath - a Johnson - was IMO delivered with this knife. It is a stock sheath so not a big deal. As I stated previously, I don't know if this is one of the actual knives delivered to NASA for survival training, but may be one made available to support staff, NASA officials, and/or those in some way affiliated with the program in some fashion. It would seem Mr. Salvo falls into one or more of those categories.

I would suggest that anyone that wants a bit more information on the Astro to thoroughly read the portion of Gaddis devoted to the subject. I think that would answer many of the doubts and questions posed here. I would not over scrutinize this piece "looking" for things that probably don't exist. It is a very early Astro of the first type, simple as that.

Joe the crutch, I think the sheath is a Johnson...what do you think?
Ronnie

"No sheaths were delivered with the NASA survival training knives. The Salvo sheath - a Johnson - was IMO delivered with this knife. It is a stock sheath so not a big deal."

It's in the fine print.

We're on the same page Miles. I have been discussing on line and thru pm's with Jacknola who thought it was a Heiser sheath...I didn't think so and just wanted another opinion.
Thanks for yours.

Thanks for the comments about the rug. I unfortunately have somehow accumulated 60 or so. If you think disagreements on this board are volatile, you should see what happens on the rug chat boards (see “Turkotek”) where 10 times the variables are present… LOL.

Permit me a few comments. I don't have the Randall experience of many of you but am an compulsive researcher. I conduct engineering (etc.) investigations of offshore oil field accidents in my day job (yep... including Deepwater Horizon... it's been and interesting year), so by habit I question politely, even basic information. So…

First, sorry… but to me that handle on Col. Salvo's knife looks to have been modified. It does not appear to have been a manufacture anomaly. It looks like it was crudely shaved down because nothing else on the handle is similar. If Col. Salvo was left handed, I’d call it "case-closed, preponderance of evidence.” But that's not very important and reasonable people can disagree.

But more importantly, I'm having a hard time assimilating the idea that no sheaths were EVER furnished for the original knives, absent unequivocal documentation. There is contrary evidence. And it is resonable to assume that once the need was established, they were supplied with the rest of the first batch of <30< blades.

And even more importantly, there is some evidence about who furnished those sheaths, possibly/probably including the one for Lt. Col. Salvo’s knife.

From Wickersham’s book, P. 58-59, he discusses the role of Mr. Jimmy Stockman, local leather-shop, who possibly made the sheaths in question exactly from a template from a Heiser sheath. He says Bob Gaddis is the one who discovered the role of Mr. Stockman who made quite a few specialty sheaths for Randall during this time, when Heiser could not meet the need for limited edition custom work.

For reference here is a Model C Heiser: (Note: The following two pictures are scans from Mr. Wickersham's book)





Here is a quote from p. 59, referring to an interview with Bob Stockman, son of Jimmy Stockman: “ ... several of the original seven Mercury Astronauts later stopped by his father’s leather working shop to thank him for the quick turnaround time and quality of the sheath manufacture…"

Furthermore, the reason this sheath is an exact copy of a Model C Heiser, except with a Randall stamp, is also discussed at length, with some documentation, and reasonable deductions. Mention is made of much confusion in the collector ranks about seeming Heiser sheaths, some unmarked, others with different threading and with Randall stamps during this time period. Those sheaths are traced to Mr. Stockman in the book. His son explained that they disassembled Heisers, used them as templates for the specialty sheaths.

Note the cross-wise direction of the Randall stamp on Lt. Col. Salvo’s sheath. The existence of this Randall stamp is also documented as being applied to some otherwise apparently-Heiser sheaths, as early as 1960, preceding the general adoption of it later.

Wickersham’s speculation about why the new stamp was created also seems reasonable. He notes that following the last merger of Heiser with some conglomerate, a truly awful logo was adopted, and Randall apparently hated it, and created his own stamp, that was applied to unmarked Heiser’s for a time. And it was also applied at the Randall shop to the sheaths made by Mr. Stockman... who made the sheaths for the astronauts.

The 8-rivet model C sheath (including the riveted keeper) was apparently made (by Heiser, copied by Stockman) for a definitive period of time, late 50s until very early 60s. The riveted keeper was then dropped and when Johnson took over, the sheath construction was shortly thereafter changed to using the large throat rivets. I confess i don't know if Johnson ever made a model C with a keeper rivet.

In any case, the time window to acquire Col. Salvo’s knife AND the Heiser-looking sheath with cross-wise Randall stamp was very small. The most reasonable explanation is that this is one of the sheaths made by Jimmy Stockman, from a Heiser model, stamped in the shop with the Randall stamp. And that it was provided with the knife…

I have a hard time envisioning a man with Col. Salvo's responsibility driving over to Randall…on pre-Interstate back country Florida roads, during the height of the 24 hour days of the Mercury program, just to acquire a sheath for his personal knife.

Whatever you all think of Wickersham’s book, it seems reasonably well footnoted, with all the major collectors and authors credited, including many who are on this board.

To me, the note about the Astronauts thanking Stockman for the sheaths seems to be an important clue. But there is more, the possiblity that the knives were supplied without sheaths, but that the sheaths were provided shortly thereafter, and if so, with all subsequent knives.

Why? Well ... I wonder about the meaning of the “thank-you” statement to Jimmy Stockman - "...for the quick turnaround..." It could indicate he quickly filled a specific need of the Astronauts, one reasonable deduction would be to provide a carry mechanism during survival training? Whatever the answer, Stockman apparently made at least 7 sheaths, during the Mecury program, one for each Astronaut... and he was out of the sheath business shortly thereafter when Johnson took over supplying Randall with sheaths.

Finally, compare Col. Salvo's sheath with the one displayed with Grissom's "personal" knife... they are identical, except for the handle shaving on Salvo's, and I'd bet the back of that sheath has the Randall stamp. See:

http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=94626&page=1




Regards,

Interesting info and I like your thought process Jack. I also like you, from what little I actually know of you and I have a respect for you and your service to this country. However you have stated here on more than one occasion that you are not a true Randall collector as much as an accumulator. I'm paraphrasing but think I'm close. You admitted not to being a Randall expert. Well neither am I but I have been studying, collecting, investigating, holding, touching, and asking a lot of questions since 1980 about every aspect of Randall Knives and all things Randall....including sheaths.
That said I will point out the difference for you between a JRB and a Heiser. You noted Sheldon's work and I have his book. Sheldon did a great job being a newcomer to Randall's not too many years before he wrote his book. He, like many of us fell head over heals for these knives and their history. He research his book well and it has a lot of useful info. However it is not without flaws. I'm not knocking his book as I keep his book close as I use it regularly.
Mr. Randall always sent a sheath to whomever was about to make a sheath. I think the Stockman deal is interesting and good work on Sheldon's behalf. But the bottom line is this. The sheath that is with the Astro on ebay was made by old man Johnson and there is a simple way to tell. The sheath with Grissom's knife in that State Park Museum was made by old man Johnson. Not by Heiser and not by Stockman. Maybe Stockman made some...maybe a few...maybe one or two. I don't know.
You read where Stockman allegedly took a Heiser apart and used it as a template for making his sheaths. So did everyone who made sheaths for Randall knives.
If you look at the heiser you show above from Sheldon's book notice the point at the bottom of the sheath. This is a trait on just about every Heiser Mod C sheaths that I have ever seen. The point is clearly obvious. Notice the sheath with the Astro on ebay. It has a more graceful rounding of the point. (I don't know if I'm explaining this right) notice too the lack of this point on Grissom's sheath. I have never, ever, never, ever never, never never....witnessed this clearly defined point on a Johnson. I have seen a few Johnson sheaths that were not buffed or sanded as much as others and one might think there is a point but I don't believe it to be intentional as much as just not finished off as well. If you have or have seen a Mod C sheath built by Sullivans you will notice that for what ever reason they have decided to go with the point. Personally I like the gentle graceful curves of the Johnsons. Robert Hunt mentions this exact graceful curved sheath of Johnsons in one of his books. My comments here may sound crazy or stupid but look at the sheaths....hold many of them...look at the stiching and soon you will be able to tell the subtle differences between the several sheath makers thru the years. I also believe...and could be just as dead wrong as possible, that some sheath makers have used different quality leathers. Just an opinion of mine.
At any rate Jack don't take anything that I've said here and go bet the farm on it. Like I said I'm no expert. After all what is an expert? An EX is a has been and a SPURT is a drip under pressure.
Sorry this BS took so long.

Now that this thread is back on track, I am enjoying it very much. It reminds me of a thread I saw several years ago on a watch collecting forum about which watch was the first to be worn on the Moon. Even the most knowledgeable posts ended with: "Only one person really knows the answer and that is the person who wore the watch, but nobody has ever asked him." The next time I saw this person, we had a long a conversation about his watch and the collectors got their answer. Now, whether everybody BELIEVED that answer is another issue, but that is a subject for another thread...

Jack,

I love the fact that you research! IMO this community needs more members like you to help participate in putting the Randall puzzle together.

There is an easily discernable difference in both workmanship and finish details between a Stockman sheath and either a Heiser or Johnson sheath of roughly the same era (It is difficult in many cases to tell a Heiser from a Johnson without the benefit of a stamp). There was a thread about Stockman sheaths on this forum back in 2007 which illustrates what I'm talking about:

http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=26672&page=1

It may be a bit painful to read because it's contentious, but there is some good info contained in it.

Note also that (1) Joe wrote a couple of good articles about early Johnson sheaths in issues 60 & 61 of the RKS newsletter (2) There was an article about a very early Astro in issue 72.

Best,

Does anyone know what happened to the Astro on ebay? It disappered and I can't seem to find it "relisted"

Jack, do you have any of Bob Hunt's books? If so, you can look through the photos of earlier brown micarta Astros, and see some of the same type of exaggerated and irregularly beveled scales as on the Salvo knife. It is not an anomaly, just the way some were made. I am not saying that Mr. Salvo could not have modified his handle, I just think it came that way from RMK.



Gaddis states that sheaths were requested for the first 20 knives to NASA. Whether they were delivered with sheaths I do not know for a fact, but one could ascertain that they were, as model "C" sheaths would be a stock item for the model 15.



Jack, this is where the disconnect takes place. How do I say this tactfully, and I probably can't, so PM me if you require more info. You may be able to deduce a bit from the link Ron provided.




I have never seen an early Astro in a Stockman made sheath. Stockman sheaths are very crude relative to Heiser and Johnson. The Salvo knife sheath is NOT a Stockman.



This information has been covered and refuted more than once. Stockman probably made no more than a couple of hundred sheaths over a short period of time, maybe 3-4 years.




According to Pete Hamilton, other ex-employees from the period, as well as more recent RMK associates, sheaths have never been stamped in the Randall shop.

According to Gaddis, only one sheath was made by a "local maker" for the first Astro prototype sent to Gordon Cooper. This knife did not have a hilt, so I surmise it was a simple sheath with a leather tie keeper similar to the first Ward Gay sheaths. One could glean from this that Stockman was the maker for this one sheath.

I do not believe Stockman ever made a riveted model “C” sheath of any kind. IF in fact the conversation you quote from Wickersham’s book actually took place as stated, any sheaths made by Stockman for astronauts were probably very simple sheaths.



Any more so than the astronauts themselves doing the same if necessary? I am unclear where this improbable scenario came from. Why would Salvo have to drive anywhere to get a sheath for his knife when he could get one with the knife when ordered?



Uhhhh, no, that is patently false.



Purely supposition based on Wickersham's comments. If you read the link in Ron's post, you will get a better handle on what the situation is. Again, anyone that truly wants to research RMK's needs to start with Bob Gaddis' book. I cannot stress that enough.



The sheath on Grissom’s Orlando forged blade is a Johnson. It is the same as Salvo’s sheath. Both Grissom and Shepard carried one of the NASA Solingen knives on their flights, that is why their personal knives still exist. The other two went to the bottom with the Grissom knife being recovered as we know.