Tom, you wrote:The problem is that the EDO Photo Contest had obviously become a popularity contest, which clearly violates the third criteria. It is still a Members contest, but now the photos are better guaranteed to be judged according to the criteria. I see that as a good thing.
Think about the purpose of the EDO Photo Contest, which is specifically to promote photographic excellence. When it turns into a popularity contest, it actually encourages photographic mediocrity. Rhett obviously noticed this.

Keep in mind that the three judges are ineligible to win anything. We can certainly post photos to the contest threads, but they would serve only to (hopefully) inspire others to make an effort to improve their photographic abilities. Rhett chose Edo as one of the judges, for obvious reasons. He also enlisted the help of Jim Gates and myself.

Some of us take photography quite seriously. I am one of them.

Allow me to get up on the proverbial soap box for a moment or two. Photography is the art (and sometimes science) of capturing light onto film, whether it is traditional film or a digital representation. For this reason, adequate lighting, or the ability to control lighting, is path toward photographic excellence. I am grateful that Edo had inspired Rhett to start this contest, and I feel that the rules that Edo has set forth are in the spirit of what was originally intended. I, for one, shall respect them.

As for myself, I am still learning ways to improve my photos. In my experience, your best critic is yourself.

To be perfectly honest, you're way off base here, and the above statement clearly conflicts with what you are attempting to convey.

Ken,

I think this is the substance of a very good debate.

I believe one of the primary intents of this contest is to have fun and be completely inclusive to all members regardless of their photographic skills, knowledge, investment in equipment and commitment to excellence in photography. I see nothing wrong whatsoever with proposing a more professional photo contest and if that is the case maybe a more laid-back, casual, non-technical photo contest should run in parallel in the lounge.


Ken, Think about that statement. I am sure that some of the photos posted in the contest are from folks that have never posted a photo anywhere before and likely have minimal experience in photography, digital or otherwise and may not have a long term interest in photography to begin with but have a desire to participate and show off their prize Randall Knives in the most creative way possible and these same photos may seem mediocre to some but may very well be an achievement to the one who created it and to label such a photo as being mediocre could be construed as an insult and rather demeaning and to hold a contest which would almost certainly eliminate the possibility of winning for an entire subset of participants is rather narrow-minded in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I do not have any problems with the idea of a more professional contest and I have been an advocate of the same to a small degree in the past but I have learned to accept and appreciate the current contest format for what it is and that is all inclusive and anyone and everyone has a chance to win. Sure there may have been a few odd ball winners in the past but for the most part every winning photograph I have see has been pretty darn good.


This tends to insinuate that you that you respect something that I don't which is reckless and inappropriate in my opinion.



I too take photography seriously although obviously not as seriously as you and that's why dedicated photography forums and their contests exist but with the current format I think it is great that everyone that enters has a chance to win and they don't need a $1000+ camera, professional lighting and a direct computer interface to have a chance.

I think you are overstating the popularity thing and I think that some photos have won because of some inherent or symbolic meaning that I guess don't fit in with the current judging criteria. Let me reemphasize, I am not against a more professional photography contest or a more precise application of the current judging criteria but it will be a rather abrupt departure from the current process and the announced changes will most likely prevent the casual knife photographer from ever having a chance to win.

Tom,

Unfortunately, there is not much of a debate, because the EDO Photo Contest is all about "Excellence In Knife Photography," and to some that means something. In fact, that exact quoted phrase is included in its logo. We should respect that. In fact, for the judges, it is prudent that they respect that phrase. To do anything different means taking steps back, not forward.

Excellence in anything should be rewarded. To reward mediocrity goes against the spirit of this contest. Yes, it may sound harsh to some, but that is how we grow as people. If I take a crappy photo (and I do take some crappy photos), I want to get an honest critique, not some "feel good" or false judgment. In other words, I want an honest assessment, which is the only way in which I can figure out how to do better next time.

To conclude, I prefer not to derail the new rules and judging criteria that Edo has set forth, so before you become too critical of them, I strongly suggest that you (and others) give them a chance, and have a bit of faith. I take the role of judging quite seriously, and I am confident that the other judges, which include Edo himself, feel the same.

Ken,

I have not doubt that you as well as the other judges will take the judging very seriously and I may be overstating the desire the general membership has in participating through the voting process and I wholeheartedly appreciate and support the drive for improvement and excellence but you should always consider that there are many things in life that are inherently subjective, anything that is not measurable, quantifiable can be subjective, even excellence. It may all depend on a point of view, just as a profile is different from a frontal shot, point of view.

Here is an idea with a couple of twists that could incorporate some general participation.

Judge the photos as descried but, run the voting poll as always with the results hidden from everyone, including the judges, until after the judges have scored the photos then do one of two things.

1. Let the winner of the voting poll equal some small percent of the winning photo. I don't know, 10%, 15%, you guys decide.You wouldn't even need to display the results of the general vote. With this, everyone still has a bit of a say but it wouldn't be enough of a say dramatically shift the results.

or

2. Judge and declare a winner as described. The results of the popular poll mean nothing but print the voting results, use it as a challenge to those who vote by encouraging them to vote based solely on the published criteria for voting. It could be harmless fun to see how the general vote turns out. Having a winner by a judging panel as well as a popular winner is very common in many types of contests.

Well put Tony, and I agree with you.

An easy solution would be to develop a weighting factor/estimated value indicating the relative importance of each voting group (official judges vs. RKS members). If the EDO Photo Contest is determined to be mainly about "Excellence In Knife Photography," the weighting factor/value for the individual judges (being the experts) could be higher versus the weighting factor/value for RKS members (being the laymen). This would still allow for member participation in the voting.

Tom,

You wrote:And, that is precisely why there are three judges, not one. Edo gave the revised rules and criteria a lot of thought, floated them by Rhett, and they make a lot of sense. To a great extent, the revised rules prevent the proverbial ballot box from being stuffed. This is not to state that it has happened, but that it is important to prevent this from happening, especially when the goal is to encourage forum members to make an effort to improve or further enhance their photography skills. The current voting method is easily abused.
I urge you to read Rule #6 carefully, and consider how it establishes a second tier:This method is two-tiered, whereby three judges declare winners for the semi-monthly EDO Photo Contests, but that forum members, not the three judges, pick the winner of the Annual EDO Photo Contest from among the winners of the semi-monthly EDO Photo Contests for the year prior.

Given that the Annual EDO Photo Contest is run shortly before Blade, the first one will have its winner selected by the three judges, merely to ensure that all of the entries have been judged in the same way and using the same criteria, but that subsequent Annual EDO Photo Contests will have its winner selected by the forum members.

I like the new judging system. The only change I would suggest is to move the EDO contest to the main forum for maximum exposure and participation.
Tom wrote:
"It is no longer a Members contest". This was designed specifically to be a photography contest to encourage excellence not a voting contest. It is open to everyone not just RKS members. Though it may have become "a laid back, mostly informal contest just for fun", it was never intended to be simply a social event. "ZERO input from the Members"? The members "input" is their photograph. Members can and do post images in every thread without being judged. When someone takes the time to set up, shoot and enter an image for the contest I suspect they would like it judged on the merits of their image under the criteria set forth in the rules. I know of several excellent photographers that are conspicuously absent from the contest. I'm certain there are many more that I don't know about. One reason for their lack of participation may be that the best image rarely wins the "popular vote". Frankly, I don't see a great deal of participation from anyone under the current format:

July – August -8 entrants, 24 votes
May-June - 6 entrants, 24 votes
April - 4 entrants, 18 votes
Feb-Mar - 8 entrants, 25 votes
Dec-Jan- 8 entrants, 35 votes

While getting the statistics I noticed that tglassco, with his passionate support of the status quo, has not even entered the contest all year. Perhaps the new format will encourage more participation as well as better images. Anyone can win and anyone desiring to improve their photography skills need only ask. The legitimacy of the contest is not associated with the value of the award. The $13.00 hat is an award not a prize. It is supposed to acknowledge excellence not reward garnering votes.
Our forum is all inclusive and the contest is open to everyone but the winner should have the best image. Subjective, perhaps but the subjective opinion of acknowledged educated photographers will get us much closer to the stated goal of the contest.

I completely agree with Rick Bowles and I thank Ken Lunde for explanations and details.

Rick,
This is not totally on my topic but you stated in your "close":

"Subjective, perhaps but the subjective opinion of acknowledged educated photographers will get us much closer to the stated goal of the contest."

OK: I used to be quite proficient at photography. Nikon F's, Hasselblads, the whole shootin' match. I still take "OK" photos but nothing I would entertain as an entry in Edo's contest. I would not enter at any rate, as I feel it "may" give the impression of self-absorption.
I post photos on these forums to show folks various Randall knives, hunting, fishing, etc. "stuff". Some have found them educational, fun, at the very least...Somethin' to look at. I have never considered them "good enough" to enter Edo's contest...let alone "win"!!
My point is: If the contest is to encourage more "quality" photos and get more good, great, perhaps interesting quality photos why don't "we" help folks like...well..."ME"!! Why can't we couple this new photo contest with a "digital photography for dummies" (myself included) self-help photo thread.
Just as an example: Say the "winning" or "second" place photo is stunning and folks would like to know the "how" to try and accomplish a finished product similar to it. Why can't we establish a "semi-monthly" thread...or a "pinned" thread, similar to the Randall ordering thread, where folks can go and get some form of tutorial as to "F-stop" settings, blade angle, photo-shop tricks of the trade. "ISO" settings and other various "helpful hints" to get more members (and non members) in the game?
Personally: I love looking at Jim Gates' photos as well as Ken's..."BUT...(You knew that word was coming sometime) I would also like to challenge myself to try and create an image like those. I think the "new" photo contest could be linked to an opportunity to help and further "include" all of us...Just sayin'...What do the rest of ya' think.
Best, Capt. Chris
PS: Now...I really gotta finish packin' and get "on the road" to Savannah...Great weekend to all...CCS

Captain Chris,

That is a great idea BUT, back in January 2009 such a thread was created and there was a lot of participation, 53 pages worth, and the powers that be would not even make it a Sticky Thread.

Now it will most likely be recreated and hailed as a wonderful idea.

Photography Forum/Thread