Tom -

1)Primarily for the horizontal stamp. It is generally accepted at this point I believe, that MJ was too late for that. While I think that is the case for the most part, it just shows that there are exceptions.

2) I am a bit confused by this question. You should be able to glean that from all the comparison photos and accompanying text. That is one of the purposes of this thread. But seeing they were made by the same company there is very little difference except there was a bit of decline in quality towards the end of their involvement with RMK.

3)Common? Probably not, but not unheard of.

4)Something cool done a long time ago along the lines of a sub-hilt installed in reverse at the butt.

Thanks Joe. As you probably saw in Sam's thread, it looks like Smithsonian sheaths have horizontal stamps. Here's another: Link

While sheath stamp orientation was fairly consistent with manufacturers, exceptions notwithstanding, it has been brought to my attention and it is questionable whether it was done for "aesthetics" which is currently being promoted in another thread.

The Hesier stamp was put on horizontally because that is the way the logo is read when you turn a sheath over, so that is the natural orientation. No mystery or "it looks better" scenario.

Now the larger RMK football shaped logo was designed for the same orientation and was initially stamped in that fashion. When it was discovered it did not fit well on the old style pancake sheaths of the day supplied with smaller knives such as the 8-4, actually cutting the belt slots with a good whack, the orientation was changed on those models. To keep things somewhat consistent, the change was made at HKL on all models.

When Johnson came on the scene, the sheaths he used as examples had the vertical stamp, and like center keeper snap location, "west" logo stamp orientation, and serif model/length stamps, he followed suit. He continued with the vertical stamp, albeit changed to east, predominately throughout his involvement with RMK.

If the main reason was "aesthetics" as is being promoted, then the change would not have been made on bigger sheaths. If aesthetics were the main issue of the day, the model/length number stamps would be in the same orientation as the logo stamp. That is NOT the case. So I believe it is more of a form follows function scenario.

Note that Sullivan's has traditionally stamped all sheaths horizontally with the RMK logo except where space constraints come into play on smaller sheaths and "C" style which are stamped on the front, NOT because of aesthetics.

While it can be said that debate is good, the tone of the debate that has taken place with these threads has not been good in many instances, to the point that moderators have gotten involved. To the point that many readers don't know what the point is.

More than a few have conveyed to me that they have no interest in reading much less participating when it takes a turn for the worse. Not good for the hobby. When enthusiasm is replaced with attacks both personal and professional, not good for the hobby. When enthusiasm is replaced with obsessive compulsive behavior, not good for the hobby. When enthusiasm causes one to be so fixated on something that it closes that individual off to any rational discussion in the face of solid evidence to the contrary, it is time to move on (which some have) and not good for the hobby.

I think I have reached my limit on this subject for the time being, and actually did some time ago, but by request and in the interest of promoting the hobby I decided to proceed. But now I acquiesce as I have spent entirely too much time and energy answering and refuting claims most often incorrectly presented as "facts". Presented as "facts" from folks that have done the vast majority of what they call "research" based on photographs never having handled the overwhelming majority of the subject matter personally. Hands on examination is an integral part of the equation not to be discounted.

Even though some of these traits may show consistency with a certain manufacturer it doesn't necessarily mean exclusivity to that manufacurer, and we who have been in this hobby for sometime realize it is not unusual to find exceptions. We also know that some of the 'findings" initially may seem like a big deal or a defining fact, but in the end they really may not mean much in the big picture and don't change a thing.

Everyone who reads this,
Joe and I have talked, on numerous occasions, about the subject of transitional sheaths. We have both (as Joe stated) "handled" a lot of examples of transitional sheaths over the years. I spoke with Joe today about all of this and we both agreed (Yes: That's correct. Joe & I agreed on something) about a couple of key...VERY key points.
* There is no finite "rule" or "absolute", when it comes to transitional sheaths.
* Though many cases (and "stands") may be represented and taken, transitional sheaths have their obscurities.
* The "third" point is the best common ground..."AND" the one you good folks should hold true above all others. Though a transitional sheath may be Heiser, HKL, Johnson or some mysterious other sheath makers offering, THE VALUE OF THE KNIFE & SHEATH PACKAGE DOES NOT CHANGE! For appraisals (which I do) or authentications (which Joe does) the end result is all good and the value is not affected!
One more thing: Joe & I have had "spirited" debates over Randall "findings". We respect each other, each other's knowledge and passion for this fantastic addiction we both share. Never once have we had a harsh word to one another, nor publically attacked each other. I hope through all of this venture everyone has seen that...if nothing else.
Transitional sheaths need to be closely examined, by hand, to offer finite opinions as to their origin, etc. Nothing else will do. I hope everyone will take something positive away from all of this subject. I hope all will have learned a little more about this era in Randall Made Knives' history.
Back to work...
Stay sharp, Capt. Chris

Joe,

Check out this sheath. I assume you will say Johnson, but the stitching is so Heiseresque compared it to other Heiser/HKL sheaths in this thread. I know we can't go on stitching alone, but other common features typically associated with Heiser are present as well.

eBay link with more photos





Compared to the Heiser sheath in this photo.





And the different stitching compared to this one.

Tom -

obviously an HKL sheath, no question, and you are starting to get the picture. Doesn't look like a Johnson does it? You should have a good idea yourself by now. Here is another for your perusal. This is nothing new. Do note though that they are both 1-6 sheaths and pretty much identical. I would venture to say they were made in the same batch. Also note there appears to be a slight "flat" at the dome of the snap, which has been mentioned before even on the Hesier marked snaps of this type. This very,very limited usage, is similar to the small brown painted glove type snaps that you may have seen on also a very few sheaths from the period.

If you read my post earlier in this(?) thread, it has been determined Heiser did use a baby dot type snap on holsters primarily, and a few generic knife sheaths. Apparently a couple (maybe the only ones I recall seeing) found their way onto an RMK sheath made by HKL. I agree with Ron's previous post that it is a larger snap of the baby dot type. You can really see the size difference on the keeper strap. You guy's gotta give me a break. I keep repeating myself over and over. Getting tired man.

Sorry Joe. It's an awful lot to remember. Get some rest. Who knows what might pop up tomorrow.

In summary, I have provided both a cogent visual display and light commentary about Heiser/HKL brown button sheaths and Johnson brown button sheaths during the 1962 transition period between the two manufacturers. While there is overlap and sheaths from both manufacturers were available simultaneously for a period, the distinctions between Heiser based HKL brown button sheaths and Johnson brown button sheaths are readily evident.

Some popular models of HKL sheaths were used up quickly like model 1 and model 3 sheaths, the two most popular at that time, while less popular models languished. Thus you would expect to see more Johnson brown button sheaths of those model versus Johnson brown sheaths of other models. It is not coincidence that many of the sheaths used as photo examples in this thread happen to be those two models.

Johnson baby dot sheaths are included at the tail end of the transition period and are ancillary to the discussion, as the transition from HKL to Johnson had for the most part already taken place by the time Johnson introduced the baby dot snap. The list below is how I see the Hesier/HKL and Johnson transition went down in a somewhat chronological order.


1)H. H. Hesier ceased to exist under that name in 1958 after the second buyout in a decade.

2)Heiser-Keyston-Lichtenberger (HKL) was the new company

3)Bo Randall was looking for a local sheath maker

4)Jimmy Stockman made a small number of sheaths from around 1958-59 to 1961-62.

4)HKL sheaths are stamped with the RMK logo beginning probably in 1960 and maybe earlier

5)First RMK stamps on HKL sheaths are horizontal in orientation same as Heiser

6}No sheaths are logo stamped in the Randall shop - ever

7)HKL uses serif number stamps same as H.H. Heiser

8)Second RMK stamps on HKL sheaths are predominately ‘R’ up (west)

9)No Stockman sheaths to date exhibit an RMK stamp.

10)Gary Randall “finds” Maurice Johnson in the spring/summer of 1962 upon graduating from college.

11)Last shipment of HKL sheath arrives in the shop in 1962

12)Johnson uses examples of HKL sheaths as a guide to make his sheaths.

13)Johnson has dies made for his sheaths

14)Johnson is up to full production in approximately 6 months

15)Initial Johnson RMK stamp orientation is ‘R’ up (west) same as HKL

16)Johnson uses center snap location same as HKL

17)Johnson use serif model/length stamps same as HKL

18)Johnson changes keeper snap location to edge of sheath

19)Johnson switches to baby dot snap late 62 early 63

20)Johnson second RMK stamp orientation is ‘R’ down (east)

21)Johnson uses “modern” model/length stamps at first intermittently.

22)Johnson sometimes uses no model/length stamp, sometimes length only, sometimes model only, and sometimes both.

I bumped this to the top so those that wished to review my "timeline" above due to the recent cherry picking certain elements out of the timeline and presenting them out of context in another thread. Don't forget to review the preface also.

You will note the items 15 through 22 tell the whole story, not just item 17 as stated in the other thread. There is also plenty of photographic evidence in support of everything claimed in the list.