Good point, Joe. What does the male portion of the snap look like on this sheath? And forgive me - in all the discussion, I can't remember if you own this sheath or if you just had a series of photos.

tom -

standard "one piece" male as used by Johnson.

This has been very interesting to me. You guys do a great job. I'm learning things that I didn't know that I didn't know.

Joe,

I'm having a hard time understanding or visualizing the difference between a "multi-piece" and a "one piece' male portion. Don't both snaps have two male portions (front and back) and both are crimped or rolled over? Perhaps a photo of the inside of the male portion of the snap on your baby dot sheath would help.

tom -

Sounded like you got it with "Good Point". No?

surely you have a johnson baby dot you can look at to compare to the photos. the center of the male portion of the one on the early Heiser knife sheath is the most obvious, but the holsters also. They all show what looks like the center male is mushroomed or rolled as part a a crimping process.

The Heiser supplied snap male center appears convex while the Johnson supplied is concave or at least flat, in other words, a different snap.

Joe,

Well, I thought I got it until you later said a "one piece male". At that point, I became lost and wasn't sure what the difference was between a one piece male and a multi piece male. Still don't.


I'll show you my center male, if you show me yours. I can't believe I just wrote that.

Here is one of my baby dots compared to the Heiser holster snap. Under a magnifying glass, the baby dot's center male is mushroomed or rolled just like the center male on the holster snap. I don't see a difference between the two.







I agree that this Heiser snap center male looks a little different than a baby dot center male, but to me, the holster snap looks the same as the baby dot.

I had to go borrow a neighbor's magnifying glass to look more closely. I think the basic construction of the snaps is probably the same, but perhaps different makers. The holster could be the same, hard to see for sure.

I looked at a few others and there is some variation between them with some showing more like yours and other showing more like I described. Seems like earlier ones the "center male" is more pronounced. Probably not a bad thing in most circles.

The Johnson baby dot sometimes gives the impression that the male portion is one piece to the naked eye. The snap on the old Heiser sheath doesn't give that appearance to me. Looks like you can tell it is two pieces. The "one piece - two piece" male is probably a poor choice of words to describe them. Just trying to differentiate between the two.

Well, this has been an very interesting discussion and I've learned a lot. Thanks to everyone who contributed so far.

To summarize my thoughts on some of the information presented here, I now believe that at some point, Heiser used a Randall stamp. Even though the shop says otherwise, these photos have made the case for me. The middle sheath and the one on the right are nearly identical. I won't list all the matching characteristics. IMO, they are obvious.




I now know that Heiser did indeed have the ability to use baby dot snaps as evident on the holsters. Not saying they were used on Randall sheaths, but Gaddis stating that Heiser didn't have the capability for baby dots just isn't true.

So to be clear, you are saying the center is HKL made and the one to the left?

I don't disagree, however, the ability to use the snap at this point doesn't really seem to be the issue any longer. I kinda questioned that statement myself as it isn't that difficult to use the snaps. Perhaps his statement is being taken out of context? There had to have been some conversation to that effect with Bo and/or Gary, so I am curious as to how his conclusion as printed came about.

We only see a few of that style (seem to be of different manufacturer than Johnson's) used by Hesier and overwhelmingly on holsters as you said with only one example on a sheath, and what appears to be a late 40's to 50's vintage. Apparently the snap type was not too popular(?) with Heiser as the glove type (both metal and brown button) sees predominate use through their involvement with RMK, with no bonafide (documented) example of it's use on a sheath supplied to RMK.

That being said, we still have to go on what I think is the crux of it and that is Maurice Johnson suggesting the change from brown button to baby dot to Bo and Gary Randall. This based on what he determined was an inferior snap - the brown button.

If you look at the photos supplied by Ron of the model 3 sheaths, and by Ron's own account, Heiser/HKL used the small painted glove type snap when they ran out of brown buttons in the early 60's, not the baby dot. Also not the keeper placement and hole punch for center placement.

Joe,

What is going on with these sheaths? Realizing RMK sets the keeper snaps, were these "left over" Heiser sheaths that were shipped out after baby dots took over?