#26654 - 09/28/07 06:44 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Burnie]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 5148
Loc: Winter Haven, Florida
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Burnie, show the back of the sheath.
Dubie
_________________________
Dubie Baxter
RKS #5099
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#26655 - 09/28/07 07:29 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2841
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For Joe - Sheldon, did you fall and hit your head? I knew about Stockman before you knew what a Randall Made Knife was.
Sure you did Joe, sure you did... 
At least you acknowledge that.
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Sheldon wanted so badly to believe Stockman had made thousands of sheaths for Randall, I suppose so he could be the hero with a 'new' discovery in Randall history.
Hardly...lol
Sure seemed that way at the time and still seems that way now, with no end in sight.
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I don't believe your memory is that poor Sheldon that you are gonna say the events as I have outlined above are incorrect?
Absolutely...
Absolutely your memory is that bad or absolutely I am not accurately telling the way things went down?
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Please explain to us as I PREVIOUSLY asked (with no repsonse I might add} what makes this ebay sheath AND the one on page 64 of your book a Stockman sheath.
Go back and read my second post...
There is nothing there of substance that makes a case for anything. Nada. Zilch. Zip. Zero.
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Sheldon, why don't YOU ask Mr. Gaddis?
Joe I've asked Bob, twice. He told me on each occasion that he didn't recall seeing that particular bit of information...
So, I figured that since Bob sometimes looks up information for Ron when asked, Ron might have better success...
But you and Gaddis are tight, aren't you? I mean,with all the references to conversations between the two of you. Surely with accolades such as in the introduction to your book you are on great terms. I quote:
"It should be mentioned here that we owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to Mr. Robert L. 'Bob' Gaddis for his continued support and guidance, for without his help, this book would have probably started in Chapter 3".
That sure sounds as though you are pretty chummy with Mr. Gaddis. Go ahead, pick up the phone, he is probably waiting on pins and needles for that call.
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Hope that helps 'splain things for you, again, Joe... 
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#26657 - 09/28/07 08:07 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: mileswelze]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Miles, If I'm "forced" to reply  I believe it is a Stockman: 1. Irregular leather cutting. 2. Irregular stitching 3. Offset from center stone pocket flap snap placement 4. No Randall logo or model / length numbering.
_________________________
Ron Mathews
RKS No. 4223
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#26658 - 09/28/07 08:14 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: BoBlade]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 868
Loc: Montana
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For the record, this is what I think; by 1956 at the latest, ‘Bo’ Randall’s local sheath maker Clarence Moore, his ‘go to guy’ for low volume custom, first article, and prototype sheaths was out of the picture. Seeking a local maker for these types of special projects, it’s likely that ‘Bo’ gave a fair number of area based sheath makers a chance to prove themselves... In part due to a need for easy access, quality issues, price point per sheath, ability to deliver sheaths on short notice, or some combination of the above probably weeded out most of these sheath makers. But, the need for a local sheath maker hadn’t gone away... The H.H. Heiser company, located far away in Colorado was having its own problems, the ownership of the company having exchanged hands several times in the years leading up to 1960. This situation may or may not have complicated deliveries of standard sheath models, but most certainly impacted their ability to deliver on any of the special project requirements in a timely fashion... So, by 1959 RMK’s needs may have left them in a position whereby they were forced to take whatever they could get with regards to locally produced sheaths. Luckily, this was a slow period of sales, and they probably had a fairly large number of sheaths in stock... Thus, based on slow sales, and fair number of sheaths on hand, Jim Stockman, and others, could have taken up much of the slack – with mixed results. Personally, I would believe that by 1961 Stockman’s sheath quality would have improved quite a bit. But, by 1961 business was picking up, orders from Heiser had probably slowed, and the need for a local sheath maker had become critical... I am firmly convinced that the majority of Jim Stockman’s regular production sheaths – those patterned directly from separated Heiser sheaths, were produced in 1961. Further, that the number was fairly small, probably 300 to 400 in total, and that the quality was somewhat less finished than the original Heiser sheaths they were patterned after... Usually defined by the use of reddish colored, thinner harness leather with a smoother look, these sheaths differed from Heiser versions by virtue of cut, finish, stitching, and overall appearance; Stockman standard RMK production sheaths, sheaths such as the one referenced in the original post, are similar, yet very different from those that they were patterned from... This is where Maurice Johnson came into the picture; I believe that based on the sheer number of Johnson ‘Brown Button’ sheaths known to exist (and countless unknown), and the known introduction of the replacement nickel plated baby-dot snaps in late 1963, that it stands to reason that Maurice Johnson started making sheaths for RMK in 1961...this is what I wrote in our book... On a side note – I also think the last sheath deliveries from Heiser were unmarked, and that the RMK sheath stamp was used on the last deliveries of both Heiser and higher quality Stockman sheaths. In addition, that these sheaths were stamped at the Randall Shop; that the stamp use preceded Johnson’s association with RMK; and that Johnson initially stamped his sheaths perpendicularly, as had the Randall Shop... Thus, during 1961, and possibly for a few months leading up to and after, unmarked and horizontally stamped sheaths for standard RMK production could have conceivably been made by at least three different sheath making sources. That’s my thoughts on the matter; as always, your mileage may vary...
_________________________
If all else fails, punt...
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#26660 - 09/28/07 09:04 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2841
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Well, now that you asked, this is what I think; by 1956 at the latest, ‘Bo’ Randall’s local sheath maker Clarence Moore, his ‘go to guy’ for low volume custom, first article, and prototype sheaths was out of the picture. Seeking a local maker for these types of special projects, it’s likely that ‘Bo’ gave a fair number of area based sheath makers a chance to prove themselves...
Purely supposition. No one really knows how many leather or harness shops were given a shot at sheath making if any were even interested at all. Not likely Stockman was involved any earlier than the late 50's as plenty of Heiser sheaths were on hand.
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In part due to a need for easy access, quality issues, price point per sheath, ability to deliver sheaths on short notice, or some combination of the above probably weeded out most of these sheath makers. But, the need for a local sheath maker hadn’t gone away...
The H.H. Heiser company, located far away in Colorado was having its own problems, the ownership of the company having exchanged hands several times in the years leading up to 1960. This situation may or may not have complicated deliveries of standard sheath models, but most certainly impacted their ability to deliver on any of the special project requirements in a timely fashion...
The initial driving force to find a local maker was for one offs so you could get a sheath in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, you have to send a knife to Colorado or make the sheath off possibly a cardboard pattern. Neither a desireable choice would be my guess.
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So, by 1959 RMK’s needs may have left them in a position whereby they were forced to take whatever they could get with regards to locally produced sheaths. Luckily, this was a slow period of sales, and they probably had a fairly large number of sheaths in stock...
Thus, based on slow sales, and fair number of sheaths on hand, Jim Stockman, and others, could have taken up much of the slack – with mixed results. Personally, I would believe that by 1961 Stockman’s sheath quality would have improved quite a bit. But, by 1961 business was picking up, orders from Heiser had probably slowed, and the need for a local sheath maker had become critical...
I am firmly convinced that the majority of Jim Stockman’s regular production sheaths – those patterned directly from separated Heiser sheaths, were produced in 1961. Further, that the number was fairly small, probably 300 to 400 in total, and that the quality was somewhat less finished than the original Heiser sheaths they were patterned after...
Since we know Stockman made a few sheaths at least as early as 1959, it is possible he was making sheaths into 1961. I don't know that he made the majority in that one year, I personally don't think that is the case. I think it was a somewhat steady thing where he supplemented the Heiser production on a VERY limited basis.
Bob Stockman in your conversations with him even told you that, that Randall would randomly get a few sheaths made over the few years of their involvement. He said an average of 5-6 a month was reasonable. Using your math, if they made half of what you say the total production was in your last year of 1961, say 200 sheaths, that would mean Stockman made a minimum of 17 sheaths/month over a full year. 34 a month if for only the first 6 mmonths. You don't think Bob Stockman would have remembered a big push at the end of their involvmeent? It just doesn't add up no matter how you slice it Sheldon.
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Usually defined by the use of reddish colored, thinner harness leather with a smoother look, these sheaths differed from Heiser versions by virtue of cut, finish, stitching, and overall appearance; Stockman standard RMK production sheaths, sheaths such as the one referenced in the original post, are similar, yet very different from those that they were patterned from...
Damn Sheldon, your description now has an uncanny resemblance to my description!!
The sheath you cite in the original post doesn't have any of those qualities you mention. It is a Johnson through and through. It and the one in your book look nothing like the two Stockman sheaths photos posted in this thread. You have yet to address these two sheaths and their obvious differences from any other regularly seen sheth from the period.
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This is where Maurice Johnson came into the picture; I believe that based on the sheer number of Johnson ‘Brown Button’ sheaths known to exist (and countless unknown), and the known introduction of the replacement nickel plated baby-dot snaps in late 1963, that it stands to reason that Maurice Johnson started making sheaths for RMK in 1961...this is what I wrote in our book...
Well, you wrote it wrong in your book. According to Gaddis page 225 in referncing the Baby Dot snap, "Since late 1962 or early 1963, all Johnson sheaths used these snaps....."
Looks like you are a year off on that one.
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On a side note – I also think the last sheath deliveries from Heiser were unmarked, and that the RMK sheath stamp was used on the last deliveries of both Heiser and higher quality Stockman sheaths. In addition, that these sheaths were stamped at the Randall Shop; that the stamp use preceded Johnson’s association with RMK; and that Johnson initially stamped his sheaths perpendicularly, as had the Randall Shop...
On a side note, no sheaths have ever been stamped in the Randall Shop. According to Pete Hamilton, they didn't even have a stamp. That hold true from some shop workers there prior to Pete. It holds true to this day, they don't stamp sheaths at the Randall Shop.
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Thus, during 1961, and maybe for a few months leading up to and after, unmarked and horizontally stamped sheaths for standard RMK production could have conceivably been made by at least three different sheath making sources.
No Stockman sheaths sport the Randall sheath stamp, none that I have seen. I don't believe Bo would have wanted his name on those inferior sheaths. If you don't know what the hell you are looking at or talking about and think a Johnson is a Stockman, then you may see many "Stockman" sheaths with the RMK stamp.
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That’s my thoughts on the matter; as always, your mileage may vary...
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#26661 - 09/29/07 01:13 AM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Stephen RKS 5536]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 3107
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Dale, I believe United Carr made the old brown button logo snaps.
I have looked them up and they have since merged with other companies and now do automotive machining, etc. under a different name.
--------------------
Stephen Infantino
RKS #5536
Thanks Stephen.
~dale
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#26662 - 09/29/07 01:15 AM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Rick_Bowles]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 3107
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Dale,
Depending on how many you need, I may be able to help you. E-mail me.
--------------------
Rick Bowles
www.RBscrim.com
RKS #012
N.R.A Life Member
Thanks Rick, email sent.
~dale
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#26663 - 09/30/07 02:24 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Cabinet_Man]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2841
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To further this discussion a bit, two photoraphs come to mind. One is in Gaddis on page 169 of an old Ward Gay Special. I used to own one like it and it was my first hands on exposure to a Stockman sheath, at least one I surmised was a Stockman. As evidenced in that old file photo, the common Stockman sheath traits of uneven leather cutting and irregualr stitching are visible.
The second photo is on page 46 of Hunt's Randall Military Models. Showing an early 60's model one in an unmarked sheath, the author's opinion is one with which I concur. It is very possibly one of the earliest examples of Maurice Johnson's work.
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