#26644 - 09/28/07 03:12 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Burnie]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 4052
Loc: Bambalam
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#26646 - 09/28/07 03:14 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Burnie]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 04/22/07
Posts: 1387
Loc: United States
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Photo of sheath stamp. 
Edited by Burnie (09/28/07 03:15 PM)
_________________________
Burnie Austin
RKS #5489
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#26649 - 09/28/07 04:25 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: mileswelze]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 1673
Loc: Kalifornia
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Quote:
Ron,
If this isn't a Stockman, could you please explain why? If this isn't a Clarence Moore sheath, could you explain why?
I'm ruling out Heiser, Johnson... and quite possibly Stockman.
Miles,
If you're talking about Burnie's sheath:
1. IMO it's a Johnson.
2. There's no guarantee that the sheath is original to the knife and not a later replacement.
3. There's no guarantee that the 1961 date on the knife is the year it was shipped.
Without supporting documentation everything is supposition.
Joe / Sheldon: Nothing wrong with a spirited debate, but please KEEP THE GLOVES ON! Otherwise you will be asked to continue your dialog by PM.
Thanks,
Ron
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#26650 - 09/28/07 05:27 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Cabinet_Man]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 08/15/07
Posts: 122
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Dale, I believe United Carr made the old brown button logo snaps.
I have looked them up and they have since merged with other companies and now do automotive machining, etc. under a different name.
_________________________
Stephen Infantino
RKS5536
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#26651 - 09/28/07 05:35 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Stephen RKS 5536]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/18/05
Posts: 1965
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA
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Dale,
Depending on how many you need, I may be able to help you. E-mail me.
_________________________
Rick Bowles RKS #012 www.RBscrim.comN.K.C.A. NRA Endowment
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#26652 - 09/28/07 05:38 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: Sheldon_Wickersham]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2841
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Quote:
Me: Is there a Stockman sheath out there that is stamped?
Sheldon: Absolutely, the Model #1-8 sheath in the eBay ad referenced above is an example...
Sheldon, your powers of perception or lack thereof are very evident with this post. Please explain to us as I PREVIOUSLY asked (with no repsonse I might add} what makes this ebay sheath AND the one on page 64 of your book a Stockman sheath.
Quote:
Me: There are no "well made sheath examples" by Stockman, relatively speaking. The are of inferior quality to other makers, period.
Sheldon: I would say that you're splitting hairs again Joe...agreed, the sheath in the eBay ad isn't as nicely finished as an H.H. Heiser sheath, but it's no slouch either...
Not splitting hairs and NOT a Stockman sheath.
Quote:
For those just tuning in...Joe and I have been having this 'disagreement' for the last several years...first, 'Jim Stockman' didn't exist; then, when shown where Gaddis had referenced him several times, he didn't count. After I contacted Bob Stockman, Jim's son, and he stated that his father had made sheaths for "Mr. Randall" for several years, possibly three or four, then Joe said he only made 'special order' and custom sheaths on a limited basis...
Sheldon's memory is failing at this point because I don't recall any 'disagreement' the last time we spoke which was several years ago. More on that in a minute.
Sheldon, did you fall and hit your head? I knew about Stockman before you knew what a Randall Made Knife was.
Yes, Stockman sheaths are for all practical purposes "special order" as you call it. Stockman did not have bins of sheaths at the ready if needed. In fact, I say there was no stock on hand of sheaths at all in their leather shop. Stockman was nothing more than a relief valve for RMK if there was an immediate need for something "special" or not currently in stock.
Quote:
Contacting Bob Stockman again, he told me that "Mr. Randall used to bring sheaths by my fathers shop, sheaths made by some guy up in Colorado; my dad would spilt the sheaths apart and make templates from those sheaths for the ones he made for Mr. Randall"...then Joe's story changed to include 'maybe a few dozen sheaths'...now we're up to several hundred... 
Getting back to the phone conversations that I had with Sheldon several years ago. This is important, as we will now test Sheldon's integrity.
Sheldon called me after some discussion on the old forum, I believe some commentary by Jim Taylor about Stockman initiated the phone call.
Sheldon had previously called Bob Stockman and after that conversation proceeded to call me and basically say "I have discovered the missing link." Sheldon called me to see what I knew about Stockman as some guys were trying to figure out what were these sheaths that the identity of the maker was uncertain. He already had it set in his mind that Stockman was more that he was, a hiccup, and wanted me to know it.
The discussion was me telling Sheldon as I am saying now, Stockman made a few sheaths in the late 50't to early 60's, I doubted more than a couple of hundred at the outside. Of course in his typical fashion, Sheldon wanted to disagree with me but wasn't too confrontational about it at this point, just needed further confirmation I suppose. Maybe just to try and prove me wrong? How I initially came up with a potential for a total amount of sheaths made, was to take a 3-4 year association with RMK and run 5-6 sheaths a month on average and I came up with the numbers.
Sheldon proceeds to call Bob Stockman for a second time. Now here is the kicker. Bob Stockman confirmed my position that they only made at the most a couple of hundred sheaths. Sheldon calls me back and his comment to me and I am paraphrasing a direct quote "Joe, it looks like you are right. Bob Stockman also confirmed that they were only making 5-6 sheaths a month on average." Bob Stockman confirmed that as well!!!
Sheldon wanted so badly to believe Stockman had made thousands of sheaths for Randall, I suppose so he could be the hero with a 'new' discovery in Randall history. Alas, it didn't pan out for the lad.
So there you have it. Several years ago Sheldon called and I answered. My "story" never changed and was confirmed by Bob Stockman's son. At that point, Sheldon agreed with me, I wasn't agreeing with him. Now, Sheldon wants to share his rivisionist history on how events unfolded. Shameless. I don't believe your memory is that poor Sheldon that you are gonna say the events as I have outlined above are incorrect?
Quote:
The bottom line here is, agreeing with Joe now, Jim Stockman probably did only make a few hundred sheaths, that most of those were 'one-offs', and that the quality is likely not as good as Heiser or Johnson...that much I think we can agree on.
I suppose we can, becaus I have always maintained the same position. It is you that has waffled apparently with the sole interest of trying to prove somebody wrong - me -rather than what you percieve as your semi-divine duty as the "Randall Answer Man", even after you have stepped in the big pile of dog doo. Problem is, the position is taken.
Quote:
As to when the RMK sheath stamp came into use - Based on the number of stamped 'Stockman' style sheaths I've seen, I believe the stamp was first used in 1961, well in the 'Stockman era', and just before Maurice Johnson came into play...
Sheldon, I provided two comparison photographs of a Stockman sheath that have patently obvious traits non-existent on Hieser or Johnson sheaths. Bo-blade provided two more.
Quote:
So, for Joe to say that I'm wrong is ok (although I think we both know that I'm not), but he'll have to offer up some proof for his argument to be anything more that a false premise based on a flawed theory...
Sheldon, I provided some evidence, something for somebody to review, something different from the norm. You have provided nothing, not even a case for the sheaths you claim are Stockmans. Just a bunch of hot air.
Quote:
That said, I really don't think we're that far apart here, but until I see something concrete that counters what I've been told, seen, held, and owned...I ain't buyin' it 
Told what and by whom Sheldon? What in the hell are you trying to say? Possibly a "I stand corrected" would be appropriate at this point.
Quote:
Ron, you know Bob Gaddis fairly well, why don't cha ask him to revisit the shop records and see if he can't come up with a purchase date for the sheath stamp?
Sheldon, why don't YOU ask Mr. Gaddis? You quote converstions you and he have had with him on a regular basis. You shouldn't have a problem giving him a call as well as you know him. Why do you want somebody else to do all the work for you? That IS your motus opporandi, isn't it.
Quote:
Anyhoo, Joe, thanks again for making the forum less, how did you put it, "lame"...always a pleasure.
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#26653 - 09/28/07 06:17 PM
Re: Stockman sheath example (ebay ad)
[Re: crutchtip]
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Knife Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 868
Loc: Montana
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Miles, with regards to what Ron said about Burnie's sheath, he was spot on with his assessment. As to the knife itself, the deep choil is indicative of a pre-1963 made RMK blade. As a response to your question about the Clarence Moore sheaths - they are typically seen without any makers mark, a stone pocket flap tip contoured around the snap itself, and are tightly stitched, closely matching the blade shape... For Joe - Quote:
Sheldon, did you fall and hit your head? I knew about Stockman before you knew what a Randall Made Knife was.
Sure you did Joe, sure you did... 
Quote:
Sheldon wanted so badly to believe Stockman had made thousands of sheaths for Randall, I suppose so he could be the hero with a 'new' discovery in Randall history.
Hardly...lol
Quote:
I don't believe your memory is that poor Sheldon that you are gonna say the events as I have outlined above are incorrect?
Absolutely...
Quote:
Please explain to us as I PREVIOUSLY asked (with no repsonse I might add} what makes this ebay sheath AND the one on page 64 of your book a Stockman sheath.
Go back and read my second post...
Quote:
Sheldon, why don't YOU ask Mr. Gaddis?
Joe I've asked Bob, twice. He told me on each occasion that he didn't recall seeing that particular bit of information...
So, I figured that since Bob sometimes looks up information for Ron when asked, Ron might have better success...
Hope that helps 'splain things for you, again, Joe...
_________________________
If all else fails, punt...
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