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#170407 - 04/18/18 05:31 PM The Big Tough Folder...
Lofty Offline
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I have needed and used them for a lifetime, still have my Puma Game Warden from 1973. Then came others of lighter build and higher tech, the AFCK and etc.

Tried quite a few, settled on fewer. The top two are 1/8th" thick blades, the 3rd down is the beefed up version of the 2nd, with larger pivot and stop pin, with 0.140" thick blade, and the bottom knife is 4" of 3/16ths" thick steel. Aside from the top H1 knife, all are S35VN steel.

Of them all, only the bottom Rick Hinderer comes close to the elusive fixed blade strength in a folder. The solid stop stud through the blade is 1/4" diameter and pressed through. It butts against frame when open, preventing blade from breaking back over the top, braces to side against lateral play, and only could eventually be pounded closed by beating on the spine to peen/collapse the titanium frame lock. Pretty much as strong (and as heavy, at just under 8oz) as any 4" heavy bladed full length, reduced/stick tang knife, but still lags the euphemistic "full tang" of full handle size. And yet, a "Dependable Custom Knife", as former fireman/EMT/rescue diver Hinderer calls them, designing his own after failure of a touted emergency knife liner lock while cutting away a seat at an accident scene. The grind is quite good on this spearpoint version, immensely strong tip with useful cutting/carving edge not left over-thick as many.

As the saying goes, a big knife can often do a small knife job, but a small knife never able to do a big knife job.











Gratuitous last shot for the curious. Depending on angle and light, the scale can appear 100% purple over entire surface including flats, or same in blue, and any coverage and shade in between. It was pretty. What can I say? Men's jewelry of some utility, at least.



In all truth, the top Spyderco does anything needed, day in and day out, is far more comfortable due to rounded scales and low key texturing, easier to open and close, and the only one forgotten as soon as clipped inside waistband. So, naturally, they are phasing out this style.


Edited by Lofty (04/19/18 01:14 AM)
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#170412 - 04/18/18 07:50 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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Biggest folder I ever owned was a Benchmade 610 Rukas. It was a big knife, combo blade.
I gave it to a friend as a 50th Bday present since he could make good use for it. I also owned a Mini-Rukas limited auto but it pailed in comparison to it's larger brother. The Axis lock work in the Benchmade knives is bulletproof and made to last.
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#170414 - 04/18/18 08:30 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: W Polidori]
Lofty Offline
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I remember the 610, but, had to look up specs. By way of comparison with above posted knives, it had the thickness of the thicker Reeve, but 1/4" more length than the Hinderer, and almost identical weight just under 8oz. Probably carried even more handle total length than the 1/4" suggests, due to style?

The Hinderer has very little handle past folded blade tip, or it would be down to mid trouser rear pocket when clipped IWB.

The Rukus was a manly man knife, for sure.

I still should be able to dig up another big old folder or two, if I remember. Hopefully, others will chime in with their folding swords, crowbars, or memories thereof. Guys always go large, needed or able to be used, or not.
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#170417 - 04/18/18 08:55 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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Way I always heard it the Benchmade caused a Ruckas. Looking into it further I had a Benchmade 610BKS.
So, how bout a folder with a 4.25" blade,


Edited by W Polidori (04/18/18 09:01 PM)
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#170418 - 04/19/18 12:48 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: W Polidori]
Lofty Offline
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My own attitude has always been, "why carry a 3" blade if I can carry a 4" blade?" So, 4 1/4" sounds good to me, too.

However, most knives pull up short by some fraction of an inch of that 4" mark, and many of those still have had handle designs which really made them a pain to wear.

That may be why the common length shorter than 4", but also suspect their larger markets may have legal impediments in longer blades, and no sense making a knife which most of the market cannot buy.

My old AFCK, really the first G10/titanium/wondersteel(ATS34 at the time)/liner-lock "custom quality" to hit the mass market, and really nothing but a Spyderco in design and even royalties, was just not very comfortable. Too long, too hard edged.

The Hinderer really somewhat an easier carry due to better shaping, despite weighing what must be about twice as much.

I learned some lessons from that AFCK in what to look for, to dodge such problems again in fair amounts blown on unworkable designs, and mostly successful. Mostly.


Edited by Lofty (04/19/18 12:49 AM)
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#170419 - 04/19/18 03:40 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Big folding knives, it's cool, that's my favorite.
We have a restriction on folding knives with a lock,
the maximum length of the blade is 15 cm,
this is 13.9 cm (5.5") and strong enough lock smile


Attachments
------3086600.jpg


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#170426 - 04/19/18 09:58 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Now THAT'S a pocket knife. For pockets in what, I do not know. Perhaps a backpack?

Most length restrictions are rather stupid, anywhere, as by the time one gets to most restricted lengths in most places, nobody wants to carry the things. Giant Al Mar SERE, giant Spyderco Szabo or Catcherman at 4.6"/4.75" respective blade lengths and circa 10.5" open lengths, some of the Cold Steel, some traditional Spanish and Italian blades, they are huge in handle, as long as many sword handles.

Many bolstered designs quite heavy, and make a Buck 110 feel as a lightweight.

I freely admit the Hinderer is about my maximum for a daily driver, and truthfully pleased and suprised it turned out useful.

There have been shorter and stouter than it, and same weight, even. A friend reminded me of his DPx HEST folder with 0.190" thick blade from 5-7yrs ago and I see the DPx V2.0 is on the market, but no idea as to thickness or size (but clips attached to end normally quite weak as my friend found out with original DPx and it fell to parking lot pavement several times when dismounting).

For scale, my personal best as for Olympic power-lifting.











Some call that metal finish "stonewash", Rick simply calls it his working finish, and I call it "delux American padlock", which matches the opening and closing sounds. He made higher finishes but everybody was opting for working finish, and so.....will admit it makes for a no fear finish. The dotted Reeve has yet to cut even string, the blade grind so perfect, and only carried for personal oggling.


PS-- a day later am playing with not really good cell phone camera and trying to push it, clearly not up to job in a couple of shots, ready to delete playtime. But, then, thought someone might be curious as to what one looked like close-up, how knife edge was handled, what edges were where. The finger cut is quite comfy, talking right handed, index crease lays in scallop edge. Rear corner has the titanium side against heel of palm. Separately made parts fit pretty much perfect with any slight mismatch purely from titanium parts being tumbled, while G10 is not. Entire knife an excellent exercise in machine engraving. I DO love precision work.

It may not be rocket science, but it sure is close. And all to make a first responder knife for gloved hands, and carving away car seats and dismembering dashboards. (an two sale two idgits like me)











There is no fuzz on any G10 cut, including lanyard hole which is as clean as any other cut, only light reflections on metal in background and off of G10 high spots on the negative diamond pattern.


Edited by Lofty (04/21/18 12:39 AM)
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#170428 - 04/19/18 05:13 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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The Puma Game Warden has survived me as the single owner since earliest 70's. Am quite proud to have put every bit of wear on scales and brass, and we have been many places and done many things together.

The Cold Steel take on the Opinel has a 1/8th" thick flat ground blade of Sharon 0170-6 steel given the hi-zoot molten salt bath treatment by blade metals expert Dan Maragni and pals at the Camillus facility at same time as he was doing the blades for the Ethan Becker original line knives, Cold Steel called theirs Carbon V. When Camillus went away, so did Carbon V for those who did not know. Sharon closing down did not help, either.

Others have nearly copied the alloy (which may still be patented) but only AG Russell is currently copying the heat treat on his Sandbox Bowie and a few others, and it seems using metal from a private reserve of Maragni, reading between the lines on materials description. (ed-actually AG bought several tons at the Camillus bankruptcy auction, it turns out).

This particular knife has been beat through hawsers, pried open cans of lube, sliced roast beef and birthday cakes, and lived in adventure work kit and tool bag its entire life. I HAVE managed to dull the edge near very tip. Once.







Edited by Lofty (04/21/18 03:46 AM)
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#170450 - 04/21/18 03:44 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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When mentioning tough knives, Dan Maragni should always come up. For those who say "Dan who?", Dan has been instrumental in advances in blade manufacture technology. He studied history, the blade makers, and blades to microscopic levels, studied metallic transformations during heat treating, conducted his own years long and ongoing experimentation, studied and taught to highest levels the art of forging blades. And what forging did, he pretty much managed to duplicate to the microscopic level in factory production blades using sophisticated heat treatments and quenches. He personally made several company lines legends in toughness and durability, in particular the early original Becker knives, as well as Cold Steel's Carbon V knives such as the original Trailmaster. And even the incredibly durable blade of the lowly Twistmaster in above post.

So, when you are ever considering a knife, and it turns out Dan Maragni was involved in the R&D, think on this, rather than say "Dan who?"...you will get a tough knife.
From his own bio.

EMPLOYMENT
1988-2006 Head of Domestic Production for Cold Steel, Inc. Brought Cold Steel production to Alcas Cutlery Corp., Ontario Knife Co, Western Cutlery and Camillus Cutlery Co. Duties included overseeing every step and operation used in the production of Cold Steel knives from metallurgical examination of the incoming material to final inspection and packing. Developed Carbon V material/heat treatment, modified and improved the heat treatment to Cold Steel standards, established procedures and trained sharpeners. My position ended with the collapse of Camillus Cutlery Co. in June 2006.
1982-2006 Technical consultant to Cold Steel Inc.
1979-1988 Custom bladesmith specializing in high carbon, performance oriented knives. American Bladesmith Society Mastersmith rating and Voting Member of the Knifemakers Guild 1983-2003.

TEACHING
2005, 2000 and 1995-Founded, organized, directed, demonstrated and 
lectured at the NEBG Ashokan Sword Seminars. Lectures included “Introduction to Swords”, “European Sword Technology”, “Physical Characteristics of European Cutting Swords 250 BC to 1200 AD”, “Medieval Sword Reconstruction” and “Violent, Bloody Death” a look at forensic archeology associated with edged weapons.
2003 Lectured on “Development of Blade Patterns from Laminated and Twisted Structures” and demonstrated pattern development using Fimo clay at the annual Timonium Ethnographic Seminar.
2003 Lecture/Slide Show “From the Celts to the Normans: Early Sword Development in Europe” and demonstrated European swordsmithing at the Association for Renaissance Martial Arts 2003 International Gathering in Sandy Creek, NY.
2003 Lecture/Slide Show on “Celtic Art” at Mohawk Valley Community College as part of the visiting lecturers series.
2002 Lectured and demonstrated at the ARMA Princeton Seminar on “What is a Real Sword”.
1976-1996 Taught Bladesmithing classes at Naples Mill School of Arts and Crafts, Peter’s Valley Crafts, Brookfield Craft Center and Penland School of Crafts.
1991-1994 Lectured on “Fighting Knife Design Concepts” and “Beating the Edged Weapon Paradox: Blade Construction Techniques Throughout Time and the World” at the Northeast Martial Arts Conference.
1983-1994 Organized, directed, demonstrated and lectured at the New England Bladesmiths Guild Ashokan Seminar.
1990, 1993 Demonstrated “Blade Forging and Heat Treatment” and lectured on “Basic Metallurgy” and “How Every Sword was Ever Made in Any Time and Any Place” at the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America Conferences.
1990-1992 Lectured on “Evolution of the Japanese Sword from the Kofun/Nara to the Edo Period”, “Evolution of Japanese Weapons and Warfare from the Kofun/Nara to the Edo Period” and “Functional Fighting Knife Design Concepts” at the annual Zen Do Kai Seminars in Cazenovia, NY.
1980-1982 Demonstrated blade forging and lectured on heat treatment at the NEBG Ashokan Seminar. Founding member of the NEBG.

PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT
1996-2007 Built a prototype commercial heat treatment set up using digitally controlled furnaces and an agitated oil quench. I have been running experiments with a variety of carbon and alloy steels and making and testing blades of these materials. All these experiments and processes are documented and metallurgically examined by Metallurgical Consulting, Marcellus, NY.
1998 Research trip to Europe (Italy, Switzerland, Germany and England) with Dr. Lee Jones. Examined swords from the Celtic period through the Renaissance in museums and private collections.
1996 Research trip to England with noted arms collector and co-author of “Swords of the Viking Age” Dr. Lee Jones. Examined swords in museums and private collections and met with international arms authority and author Mr. Ewart Oakshotte.
1993 Research trip to Japan. Met with Mr. Takuo Onoue, prefectual metallurgist and Japanese swordexpert and swordsmith Mr. Kanemasa Oono.
1993 Completed Level One of the ASM Heat Treating Certificate of Achievement Program.
1992 ASM Course at Materials Park, Ohio “Heat Treating and Quenchant Techology” with Dr. George Totten and Dr. Charles Bates.
1991 Completed ASM Local Chapter Course “Stainless Steels”.
1988 Completed ASM Local Chapter Course “Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist”.
1985-1992 Studied Kali, Muay Thai and Jun Fun Kung Fu with Sifu Kevin Seaman.
1969-1971 Studied Three Weapon Classical Fencing with Maestro Oscar Kolombatovitch.

PROFESSIONAL MEMBERSHIPS
American Bladesmiths Society- Mastersmith Rating- 1983-2003
Artist-Blacksmith’s Association of North America
American Society of Materials International
Japanese Sword Society of the United States
Knifemakers Guild- Voting Member- 1983-2003
The Historical Metallurgical Society


Although not a folder, the short following clip is the result of AGR using the out of print Sharon 0170-6 steel and having it treated under Dan's supervision. Note this is not the normal filmed cinder block, but a true construction grade 40lb block, and every strike is max effort, and aimed only at corners of the block, using only the edge of the blade, guaranteed to wreck most knives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDSOwkXxlGE


Edited by Lofty (04/21/18 04:05 AM)
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#170452 - 04/21/18 04:45 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Thank you! smile

Cool, he seems to be as big a master of heat treatment as Paul Bos.

As for the video, these slag blocks are very fragile,
Most knives made of low-carbon steel will destroyed
this block, but how about keeping the edge
and flexural strength?

My friend several years ago conducted complex tests
for strength, unfortunately, these are not laboratory
tests with the possibility of repetition of loads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yB2cEyNPQDc

He made only one mistake in my opinion - he used
a steel hammer. Then he switched to rubber hammers.

You're right, I wear CS Espada in my backpack.
Constantly with myself in pocket I wear Emerson CQC8
with 3.5" blade
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#170459 - 04/21/18 10:44 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Yes, any test should test blade against material, not test blade against test equipment. A good blade will have a hard edge and be progressively springy and soft towards the back, which is why no wood carver uses steel hammers on his carving tools. Blade backs and handles are not steel tool beating surfaces, and a wood or leather mallet is needed. Rubber bounces and robs blow of force.

The demarcation line of harder/softer can be seen as a shadow on this forged blade.

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#170461 - 04/21/18 12:54 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Absolute classics!

It seems I saw him (the upper knife) on cuttingedge, right?

Previously used composite technology,
this is not zone hardening, it's better,
since we know exactly where high-carbon steel smile

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#170464 - 04/21/18 01:25 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Slowly but surely getting off the folder topic, and next will be Glocks, but...why not?
I have two identical knives made by VJ, or had, gave one to a friend. VJ (who has had his MS stamp for a quarter of a century) uses that design muchly, his working grade knives, forged leaf spring steel. Here is a video of him roughing out a similar blade, and he puts a lot of work into his knives, including the tapered tang which is forged and not ground. The burlap "micarta" he made, as well. Continue watching until complete end of video and still photos pop up showing various stages, leaf spring to finished blade. Note most every blade/handle detail is done at the forge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ7I72mmMJ4

If I had to depend on one knife, this would be it. A straight razor, log splitter, meat cleaver, all around kitchen knife. One of my most favorite users, tried to angle to hide scratches to highlight knife, somewhat successfully. The handle has a neat 3-D look to weave, even though smooth as a baby's behind.
I would pay Rick Hinderer whatever he wanted, to have such a blade on a folder. It is no coincidence the blades are so similar. Including the Model 16.







As for welding harder/softer in places, it has been around since Celts and 400BC and pattern welding twist rod with inserts, Vikings learned the craft likely from them and perhaps even kidnapped slave smiths. The actually higher carbon can still chip, so, no knife is perfect...My vote always goes for tough first, as broken edge or blade is no good to anybody for anything.

I would truthfully prefer both Hinderer and Reeve used far tougher 3V, but all the collectors would cry the knives required care and still rusted in spots, and these guys flick their knives somewhere between 1.5 million and 20 million times a day. They also complain when they wear out.

AND...really need to get back on folders, this being the folder forum and all.



Edited by Lofty (04/21/18 02:15 PM)
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#170466 - 04/21/18 02:37 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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The simple and strong Eka has been covered extensively previously, but no tough folder thread complete without it.

Before there were "tactical folders" the Eka with nylon scales was immensely popular in the UK and Europe among military members from the mid-late 1960s (1968 I think), survival courses designed around it, and used hard and heavy to no ill effect. It really introduced the first successful bolted knife, successful even in the USA under the Normark brand with black plastic scales as the Swede and Super Swede, this latest picture version really a Super Swede with blade back not quite so high.

Simple and strong, the tail lock leverage allows an extremely strong lock and the knife gives essentially a folding puukko tough utility/survival knife to the average user, the stainless blade even the same very hard to hurt Sandvik 12C27. Outclassed by the one-handers today, it still is one of the toughest knives in its weight class. Now sadly almost extinct (along with the company) except in one knife of thumbstud pointier design.

















Edited by Lofty (04/23/18 12:54 PM)
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#170469 - 04/21/18 03:34 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Daniel Winkler makes folding knives, I've been looking at them
for a long time, but have not bought yet. I do not know
he forged it or not, but there is quality hardening there
(if it is the same processing as for its fixed blades).
This is a photo from his site.
They quickly lose their virginal appearance if they are used.


Attachments
------WK_F3_Folding_Knife_43_1.jpg


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#170470 - 04/21/18 03:40 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Dan was forging, has MS rating, still does some custom work, but decided demand was enough that he could offer ground barstock lines, and his factory blades are excellent tough for hard use. I had not seen a folder before, and so, have no comments as to his design as for strength or durability. Knowing him, it SHOULD be quite good.
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#170471 - 04/21/18 03:43 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Looked more into Winkler's operation, and saw hints of a new more tacticool appearing folder on the horizon, but not sure if a solid intro.

Also looked into his steels, it seems initially his stuff was 52100 (which I call great for a skinner, but not so great for shock), then he moved to more suitable 5160, and then went up a notch on that to 80CRV2, both the latter two great for tough as nails, the last one toughest of all.



Edited by Lofty (04/22/18 02:22 PM)
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#170692 - 04/29/18 10:09 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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As for folders not quite as big, but tougher than most larger, the Hinderer XM line runs 3"/0.145" thick (a scale model by request of the cubical/office crowd styling today with oxymoronical "tactical EDCs" and who likely carry 3" "fighters", too), 3.5"/0.165" (original size hot number with military/firefighters), and 4"/0.185" (requested by gloved military/first responders, Rambo, and myself, of course). Most large folders of Endura size run circa 1/8th"/0.125.

For even tougher than previous posted spearpoint knife, Rick originally did his hallmark cross between a tanto and spearpoint, called whimsically, Spanto, which still is immensely popular. It features the exact same blade silhouette as the spearpoint (visa versa, actually). The difference being not as acute primary grind leading to an even thicker edge, and even less acute on the flat front grind, to an even thicker edge than that of the belly. On a 3/16ths" thick blade already quite stout.

Still quite useful an edge, and finer than most 3/16ths" modern tough fixed blades, but the spearpoint certainly better for finer cutting angles. I admire a fireman/military tough knife able to dismember seats and dashboards or rip a hole through a door to unlock other side, bust airdrop pallet straps, still remain a knife, and in a folder, no less. Small wonder guys in services snap these up.

Rick has been one of the few to not gouge during peak demand, and, instead, used his going from handmade to shop made to increase quality/precision, to where he was making much of his profit increase on the bottom end via cost cutting such as tool life increases vs raising prices. When his XM-18 3.5" came out circa 2006 it was a $385 knife. Today, it is $425...the $385 bumped quickly to $390, sat there for years, even as his knives sold third party for $800-$1000. As the bubble burst, as eventually they all do, nobody took a hit who bought direct. It was bad enough at the time that fire and police agencies lucky enough to have budget to supply such gear, were having fire stations buy and then flip their knives for a profit, abusing Rick's preferential treatment of our finest. It was sad. Strangely, he still only makes several thousand per year in his 15 man shop, by batches, and freely admits most of company income still from design royalties from major factories.
















the "dark" spots on choils are actually shiny contact points from stop pin when folded.

PS-after posting these, I noticed both pivot screws on the larger pair clocked to same setting. Rick is all about precision to 1/2 thousandth inch, all work and parts done in-house aside from blade primary bevels/heat treat and clip screws, his tolerances of aerospace quality, as is gauging using latest computerized optical comparators for hole location, critical surface locations, and runout. But the clocking had to have been a fluke, as I have dis/reassembled these knives, adjusted tension to my own likes to where both felt the same, and this had to have been a fluke, for sure, right?


Edited by Lofty (04/30/18 06:10 PM)
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#170722 - 04/30/18 03:10 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Randomness does not exist.
Many thanks for such an interesting excursion
into the history smile

Rick makes excellent knives, for my taste I would
have made the hilt thicker
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#170727 - 04/30/18 03:36 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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It actually is randomness, as where I had the 1/4" pivot indexed on back side was strictly dictated by spanner fitting best in a certain orientation, with clip still in the way.

A knife blade stock thicker than 3/16ths"/0.185"/4.7mm is going to be a monster, the jump from the 3.5"/0.165" thick knife to the 4"/0.185" thick blade also jumped weight from 5.7 oz to 7.8 oz.

I would simply prefer a stronger tougher steel such as 5160/80crv2/8760m be used, to not increase already considerable folded size and thickness.

To continue the history, the handmade 3.5" knife introduced 2006, shop made by 2008, the largest blade introduced 2008, still handground and all titanium, the shop made 2010 intro at BLADE with G10 (where I bought my first one via lottery, will post a photo when I dig it up), and the smallest knife introduced between the two.

As for cost cutting, mainly through better machines and programming, his tool replacement way down while production is up, suchlike new equipment means no more buried and wrecked cutters. Rick is a self-taught machinist, no easy task. He went outside his shop for primary grind and heat treat of his blades, strictly to increase repetitive quality over hand ground, while also increasing ability to keep up with demand. They still will do a hand ground, but you are taking one guy of a small crew off a busy schedule, and you WILL pay for that...I never really looked into it, but might still be Rick doing those, and a man has to feed his original STG44 and Browning General Purpose Machinegun, you know?

Personally, I like the outfit because although he has sold vast numbers of knives to elite military members, he does not cater to that, nor cater to snob/elitism at all in advertising, nor to gory imagining armchair commandos. No "Deathwind Skull Cleaver II", nor "Tools For The PROFFESIONAL Operator". Any hype has always been dealers, along with hyped prices. His motto is simply Dependable Custom Knives. Where others embellish with gargoyles, skulls, etc, Rick embellishes with dog paw prints, interlocked turning gears, and dinosaur skin texture.

His emphasis is on precision workmanship, and here is a video concentrating mainly on the TWO people fitting blades, with one blanked out for privacy request. Most of the video fitting up ONE knife, if that is what it takes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0I482ZeqTw

This second video, and actually part 1 of the above series, is a tour of shop as various parts made. Again, they batch produce, so not everything being made all at one time, a very small outfit. Be warned of terrible audio, no award winning film making here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1wryqsWjrc

I was amused by the latter (Pt1) video, as Rick was showing off his QC equipment, and saying blades could "be checked, every however many blades" sampling, while later, the actual machinist flatly stated (since production pace obviously allowed) that he checked "every one of them". Which means a worker who is exceeding QC measures, simply because he can. Note, also, earlier in the video, a machine is making glorified washers named "lock bar stabilizers" of Rick's invention, and the obviously in-use QC checking gauges next to the batch of such simple little parts.

As an aside, one can find all manner of self-proclaimed "expert" rants, including regarding Hinderer products. Liner and frame locks are a tricky balancing act, and frankly a terrible idea for a "lock" which actually works more as a sear and trigger opened or closed. Folk complain detent not strong enough to "fire" the unsprung blade opening as if a catapult trigger, or blade can open when shaken. Or even slight off-center tips. All of these issues are secondary to safe and proper amount of LOCK tension and engagement. When lock tension increased, so is opening and closing drag of detent on blade, depth of engagement and sticking or premature wear. Meaning folk then loosen the pivot for the other crowd who wants to flip the knife with a fingernail. It is impossible to please them all. So, if you want ultimate centered, there is an adjustment proceedure widely posted. It is supposed to POSSIBLY be able to shake open and which movement cannot be duplicated in pocket or IWB. If you want it to "fire", and never in a million years shake open, then disassemble and increase lock tension and enjoy the excess wear, and if you want it to flick, do the opposite and relieve tension, and if it pops closed on fingers during use, it is all on you.

Back to the XM series knife itself, it is getting old in the now ever changing knife world. Rick and crew have introduced a steel insert to lock bar end, primarily to deal with warranty claims from those who insist on batoning a knife design which works only via direct spring pressure of spring on blade to hold open, and which is going to bounce and batter the softer titanium every time with blows to spine, despite Rick's design being nearly unbreakable with any force applied any other direction. Personally, I hate the added complexity due to knife beaters, but....when you batch produce for a series, alot a certain number for warranty, and you get a surge from knife beaters or pathological flickers who NEVER stop flicking, it can really throw a wrench in the gears.
And as for design getting old, Rick is amazed it still in production, and that is due to demand. He has continued to crank out new designs, better ergonomics, most designs being geared to his larger pool of buyers mainly of only indoor adventurers and wanting more pocketable knives. And yet, it is still his XM slowly gaining classic status and still the one selling out first at dealers. And Spanto. And green or black or tan. And I fully admit partial fault in that.


Edited by Lofty (04/30/18 06:52 PM)
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#170734 - 04/30/18 07:01 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Posts: 656
Hey, DS, this is not thick enough hilt for a folder!? You are a sick man! hahaha



If, by some chance, a translation error, and thickness of hilt might be depth of hilt, they do those, too. Non-flippers, as well.




I gotta stick in a plug for my old green radio bag. We go back a loooong way, and even as a civilian, used it for everything, including airline carry-on bag, until.....
They started sniffing for explosives. Carrying this bag today is a surefire way to get sidelined and every content of bag opened and inspected, to include books, and every bag seam sniffed and examined. What is the world coming to when a guy cannot even carry a grenade with him anymore, I ask you?


Edited by Lofty (04/30/18 07:36 PM)
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#170754 - 05/01/18 04:27 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Loc: the other side of the earth
Quote:
Hey, DS, this is not thick enough hilt for a folder!? You are a sick man! hahaha


I often hear this question, but for a different reason,
most people do not understand why I have a knife
or a flashlight is more expensive than 10-15 dollars grin

All this is only a matter of personal preferences
and conditions of use. I have to cut wires and wooden sticks
from time to time, so I really want the handle to put less
pressure on the hand smile

Here are some that are constantly in use





I indicated the thickness of the handles.
The most convenient knife for my business it's with fixed blade
and this one, which I did not take pictures (Stanley 199)

From folding knife me it is most convenient Camillus TL-29
and Puma Prince, BUT their axial knots and backlock on the Puma
too weak. When I start to cut something hard and viscous,
I'm afraid to give more strength, since there is a suspicion
that I will damage the construction of the knife...

The most durable are the CQC8 and converted
from a Microtech Socom Delta (red scales),
But the thickness of the handle is a little less
than I want (I will be comfortable about 18-20 mm)
and sharp edges of scales. In fact, this is not a problem,
I can unscrew them and replace them with thicker ones.
The situation with frame locks is quite different, I do not have
the equipment to drill holes in the titanium, made threads
and fit additional scales.

Now I'm looking at Winkler II F-3 Flipper,
He also has a thin handle, but it has a good rounding scales.

Another very proper knife, in terms of convenience and durability
this Strider SJ-75, but because of the closure of the company
they are now more of a collector's thing frown

p.s.
Carrying grenades in a bag is dangerous in terms of their
inherent danger in the assembled state,
is necessary to transport them in disassembled condition,
but then a lot of time is lost for their assembly smile


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#170759 - 05/01/18 11:43 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I totally agree as to handle comfort, and if you are really needing to lean on a knife to push cut heavy wire, etc, or chest lever, the fat handle and stout blade the way to go, and thin blade if it will handle the work. OOPS, there we go talking puukkos and etc again, but, better than Glock.

Folders and handguns much the same. Only field expedient until you can access fixed blade or rifle.

For the record, the large XM is 4.7mm thick blade, 15mm thick handle, 6.35mm pivot.

Let's see. You cut wires and sticks, and lecture me about grenade safety. So, you do demolition work for a living, I see, with IEDs part time, for fun and profit.

As for grenade safety, it is the same as old Texas Ranger Charlie Miller, a very earliest 1911 user in law enforcement, who carried his 1911 on half-cock, round chambered, grip safety tied down with rawhide, and carried IWB up front, no holster. Another younger officer told him it looked dangerous, and Charlie replied, "Son, if it wasn't dangerous, I wouldn't carry the damned thing."

Our grenades are completely safe to carry assembled. Just ask the manufacturer. They even offer a full refund if any problems, and point out nobody has yet to ask for one.

I know the Stanley well, mainly used an older version of this type, though, with no retraction, either. Blades snap under heavy pressure, though, and if your hand flies across broken stuck blade piece during any pushing cut, it makes a ZING sound, ask me how I know. You learn to always have blade trailing hand, after that, and ignore top edge, even for upward cuts when ripping thick plastic sheet.



Thank you very much for posting the knives of yours, as for the big, tough, folder class, had hoped for more detail from more folk as for heavy duty folders they hopefully use.

As for cost, pride in ownership for well crafted tools is one part of it, and for we users, that the knife actually perform as good as it looks, is a huge part of why the money spent. I do not buy pretty junk. If it does not work, it is not bought, or does not stay.

As for cost, Part 2, just recently bought a lightweight version of a knife for circa $120, found scales abraded clothing, knife looked and felt cheap in opening/closing, and ended reordering the standard construction version at $160 with steel liners and relatively smooth G10 scales, as little blade and handle shape quite good. BUT, could now have bought a nicer knife in total outlay of cash. Still make rookie mistakes, which is trying to buy a lighter/cheaper version than the "real" thing.


Edited by Lofty (05/02/18 10:23 AM)
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#170763 - 05/01/18 01:35 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Posts: 656
Since nobody but DS and I want to play on this topic, will give a little more detail on the Hinderer, which is his "working finish".
My understanding is that it is accomplished via stone washing, then bead blasting (which is different than sand blasting, which they also do), then another stone washing.

Although I jokingly call it a high grade padlock finish, it is a very good finish for a user. a) It subdues glare/flare/flair, b) there is nothing to scratch off with use, c) signs of use blend right in, and best of all, d) it still a glazed surface and smooth to the hand and while cutting, especially in cutting, with no increase in drag caused by many finishes and treatments.





And also a short foray into what handle color to either buy or swap, they sell about everything, including small parts of many colors/materials.

As for small parts, originals are steel, and personally do not wish to weaken knife with titanium screws and nuts. The spacers only subject to compressive, vs shear and tension, loads were safe enough, and I like the fire-blued steel look missing from most modern goods, when formerly rather common on tools.

The handle color really only up to personal aesthetics, or how well one wants it to hide crud from use. But no work or mission reason to pick one over the other. Clipped anywhere, especially IWB, the color is against body and invisible. Laid down or dropped, a 50/50 chance it will be color side down, and invisible.

This last item is changing, if desired, as the shop has just started offering scales with clip positions at either end, as optional aftermarket accessory. Personally, I hate knives covered with drilled unused holes.





Edited by Lofty (05/01/18 07:34 PM)
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#171007 - 05/08/18 02:34 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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As for variations on a theme, Barbie dress-up playtime, by Mattel!

Alternative scales, materials, special runs and styles of blades, hardware, flipper yes/no, even to knives ground, finished, and tuned, still, by Rick.

The astute observer might notice the 3.5" XM-18 with carbon fiber has a blade as thick as the XM-24 above.

Obvious flags for varieties being a stenciled F on flipper for a Fatty, S for a Skinny. Handmade easy to spot as they are conventionally hollowground, even if finished differently such as satin/beadblast. Newer also stenciled with Rick's signature, my spearpoint predates lased markings, at all.

As with anything, there is period correct, and not period correct. Of all the knives, the orange would look best with blue hardware (bronze, brass, copper also available). But, alternative hardware was not offered at the time this non-marked blade was ground. So, rather than give some viewer thoughts of, "I wonder what else is messed with...", it stays bone stock, unscratched, the only non-user of the lot, being worth 3-4 times value of stock versions.











Very stout, highly functional, wonderfully precise, every one of them.


Edited by Lofty (05/08/18 03:10 PM)
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#171028 - 05/09/18 05:32 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
So, Lofty...

We will find you selling knives at Hinderer's table at the Blade Show?

It is still a "'stand in line" or "take a ticket and hope" situation with them?

Larry
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#171029 - 05/09/18 05:42 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I have not been to a BLADE show in at least 10yrs, so that will not change. As far as I know, he still must have a lottery for customs on his tables. He has only been making the XM line for 12yrs or so, is amazed it still in production, and assumption being in a few more years, maybe no line? One can always hope, right?

Probably will go back to Reeves in this thread, as anything the size of old Buck 110 and Schrade was always considered a big, tough folder. And Reeve knives are all of that, even though mostly a gent's crowd showpiece, as for who buys them. Heck, I wish I had not given away my old folders to kids, the Puma the only old one left.

If it is a good knife, I will say so, and give as much detail as possible as to what I like and do not like. If Hinderer was marketing his knives as the finest cutting and finished cutters on the planet, and only for elite professionals, my disagreement would be obvious.


Edited by Lofty (05/09/18 05:51 PM)
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#171032 - 05/09/18 06:47 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
As for another good knife, the various Chris Reeve knives are excellent. No crowbar, but seriously refined cutters of excellent geometry blades, and superbly precise, light, strong handles. As everyone knows, the first popular titanium intergral/frame lock, changing the knife world.

Others will be discussed, but first will simply get out of the way any discussion as to what is the best. Best at what? To my mind, the big, tough folder as a user, and not decorator item. And there simply is one obvious THE BEST of the Reeve line, or, at least the Sebenza line.

As what set the world on fire back a quarter of a century ago was the flat, smooth, super light, super strong, super simple, super precise, incredibly rust resistant framelock...it reaches its perfection of that idea by using extremely stiff, light, carbon fiber for one side, and using the titanium only where necessary, on the lock side.

Also counter-intuitively, the damascus blade is the best hard use material, being 92% super clean, super fine grained carbide dispersion Böhler AEB-L (think copy Sandvik 13C27 and Mora knives, even held at same best hardness level of circa 57Rc), 8% 304 stainless for etching contrast, of very good toughness and resiliency, if not the extreme paper cutter edge holder of alternative S35VN. The latter an excellent steel so long as edge, tip, or blade not flexed past limits, where it chips or breaks, something true of most powdered metals, almost never used for springs. A fast hard cut into cardboard and a large staple, or into a hard little limb knot, etc, can end up being a problem, the damascus more able to tolerate impact out of axis line, easier to straighten edge with smooth steel, and easier to sharpen.

Aesthetically, was suprised how well the damascus patterned light and dark steel bridged the gap from patterned black carbon fiber, to lighter matte grey deeply sandblasted titanium (not my favorite finish, at all, easily damaged, hard to repair, hard to alter). A very attractive thing, and again, not what one normally thinks of except in a safe, when it is the version most able to handle the rigors of field use, at least in the Sebenza line.

A Reeve grind note, the recent grind is thicker in hollowground side of blade, that area thickening to tip from about halfway back, and notice full spine width until almost very end. Far tougher than a straight tapered, flat ground, anything, no matter what elite name. Both the Reeve grind and many flat tapered grinds go to very fine splinter picker tips, and a personal use choice as to that being appropriate for the use. Tougher than you might think, but still not "tough". The Hinderer uses same S35Vn steel as Reeve, at higher hardness, is very tough and chip resistant, but must accomplish this via edge, tip, and blade are extremely thick, and will not/cannot attempt to bend at that hardness/thickness, the handle springing before blade. No magic. Just mongo. Reeve keeps the hardness down a notch on his finer blades to maintain toughness. No magic. Just common sense. Tougher than many same material blades, and the damascus simply the fail-safe option.

















And yes, this one has been used and edge touched up. The damascus stainless quite abrasion resistant from scratches, and masks those scratches well. The pattern holds until, I guess, outer stainless wears away, moreso that simply wearing off oxide?

As for wearing, the lock side carried IWB, clip under belt, and knife scrupulously never laid on a bare hard surface, and wish i had done so with others, where titanium sandblast looking more as worn parkerize today.

PS-obviously forgot to mention weight. It weighs a mere 1/4 oz more than the all-plastic handled Spyderco Pacific Salt pictured elsewhere in this thread. This knife can be one travelin' dude, and where was it back when I could have REALLY used the snot out of such?

For those doubting appropriate style and size of blade for most every field task, my bet is they would be too young to remember dressing out deer just fine with an old trapper folder and stone to keep edge fresh, and having no trouble making a camp/cooking fire with same.


Edited by Lofty (05/09/18 10:44 PM)
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#171052 - 05/10/18 07:28 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I cannot editorialize on Reeve, as I have only questions. Back in those heady days of the 80s-90s, Reeve astounding with his titanium framelock, the true elites of military world clamoring for, and getting, new exotic lightweight, rustproof toys such as the earliest MPKs by Mission, which gents were aerospace metals experts, only, and demanded by SEALs to simply copy a Mad Dog design....one HAS to figure actual knifemaker Reeve was approached to make beefier knives for such boys?

In any case, it never happened back then, leaving the door open for folk like Strider and Hinderer to run with the idea. Although earlier Reeve Sabenza blades were a bit beefier and more full bellied than of late, they never were what one would term a harsh use knife, but, a very refined cutter of Buck 110 size, much lighter, far better steels and blade design.

Of relatively late, the Reeve firm has introduced several knives, most of which will not be covered, because if I cannot type it, I will not own it, knives such as the Umathurmond or whatever. But it is a large heavy duty folder, blade stop studs against frame front (with rubber bumpers?), and prepped them for further beef-ups of the line.

They introduced a heavier duty Sebenza 25 which was not well accepted as a replacement for the little changed over the years, now stock, Sebenza, of 21 nomenclature. The 25 was quite different, had a few bugs, was only recently withdrawn, tweaked, and rebranded as the Inkosi, which also used some things from the Ummagumma or whatever.

The Sebenza 21 is still in the line, as is the Inkosi, and are their staples, and one cannot help but feel they would be happier if the Inkosi still became the Sebenza successor, given the recent $40 price hikes given to Sabenzas, alone, to bring their price up to equal that of the heavier duty Inkosi.

Which brings us to the present, and pictured below. The stronger knives. The Sebenza deep hollow grind and beautiful cork wheel finish seems to be gone entire from the line, perhaps to include the latest embellished knives, from what I can see from vendor site photos, anyhow. The grind line of the deeper version more a 90deg turn at the handle, the new grind angles back, as for spotting.

Only an aesthetic thing, but, when you sell premium goods, it had better be good. The new thing is total stonewash (which admittedly hides scratches better by being prescratched), stronger thicker hollow grind, and I will say the knives still cut like blue blazes.

They also have introduced the stouter sheepsfoot, along with about everybody else, a wonderful blade, whether Benchmade, Spyderco, or Reeve. It, also, has a thicker grind, and is offered in the 21 and Inkosi line, the blade style termed Insigo in their relentless Zulu name ways.

A quick foray into the marvelous engineering of the Sebenza is necessary at this point. The sides and spacers are meticulously machined so that the handle sides remain dead parallel to within circa half a 10 thousandth. This is required due to blade hinge design, such as on a precision hinge used on exotics such as aircraft spoilers or older and more finely crafted internal combustion engines. The blade has an oversize hole, through which fits a cylindrical bushing, the bushing slightly longer than blade thickness, by precisely the thickness of bronze thrust bearing washers fitted AROUND the protruding bushing on both sides, and all dead flush. This is fitted into the precisely gapped handle sides, and an internally threaded pivot inserted through handle/bushing/handle, and cap retainer screw at pivot far end installed, retaining the pivot. This means when the screw tightened down against handle drawing both together, the handle sides bottom on the ends of the bushing and against the thrust washers, with zero direct force applied to blade. When properly tensioned, this allows the thrust washers to rotate, the bushing to rotate, and the blade to rotate about the bushing, with near zero sideplay. At no point does the pivot rotate, and not only does it not require loktite, but such is sternly warned against, and likely not warranted. It is a hidden marvel, folk, and 20yrs ago, my thought that simply a much larger, otherwise identical version, with thicker blunter tipped/edged blade would have sold like hotcakes with the crowd tasked with digging empties out of asphalt for evidence, or breaking ammo pallet straps. The mechanism is no loosey-goosey butterfly knife flicker, nor even the smoothest, rather, the zero/zero close tolerance fit more akin to something massive sliding on greased rails to solid thunk of locking.

Now, let's get to other beef-ups...the thicker bladed Inkosi, which I always want to call Inksigo after typing the blade style name. There is no taking away that it is stronger. Much larger diameter pivot, thicker walled as only a pivot and cap screw, no bushing through blade, a solid larger pin as blade stop, rather than smaller screw through another precisely machined spacer, it even floating through a close tolerance hole on one side, and the blade obviously thicker and stronger than even the beefed up Sebenza. Since it lacks the bushing, the handles simply clamp on the blade and enlarged/fixed thrust bearing washers, tension is screw adjusted, the pivot now like most other knives, free to rotate, and requires loktite to stay put. The frame has well designed finger grooves. As for personal problems with the design, the lowered lock side in a finger groove (also for now dual thumb studs) makes it much harder for my blue collar thumbs to disengage the lock bar. The elimination of the lanyard hole in back, and tying of lanyard around the simplified monolithic stainless spacer in back puts the lanyard at top rear corner of handle and hard against palm in a most annoying way. Removing the lanyard leaves the rear bare, and devoid of the color of any titanium bushing spacer, a greatly missed bit of brightness in a quite monotone knife, aside from thumbstuds. They have eliminated direct titanium lock bar contact with the blade, by inserting a large ceramic ball in the front interior corner of the bar, it pulls double duty as side detent ball and locking surface of the bar.

But, if you want a harder use Sebenza style knife, there is no denying that they nailed it. Personally, I find one is enough, and still buy the odd Sebenza 21 while still being made, same as I buy the XM series Hinderer, and the earlier style minus his latest lock bar steel insert.


(sorry no Reeve ceramic ball pic, but, it's a ball)

I do not baton my knives and no chronic flicker, both Reeve and Hinderer bare lock bars will outlast me. And I personally question both designs as to concentrating all force in an even smaller areas, except only to titanium on the back side of whatever device. Only time will tell, but not on my dime.



older and newer grind



Inkosi top and Sebenza bottom





Rather picture poor on Sebenza/Inkosi comparisons, botched them, and will add tomorrow with better light.

With both the Hinderer and Reeve as integral frame lock folders with thumb studs or flippers, none are my ideal of big, tough folders for constant daily use of deploying/folding. All three surfaces, lockbar, stud, and flipper, put uncommonly large amounts of poorly leveraged force against small areas of finger or thumb when properly tensioned for safety, and become annoyingly painful, quite fast, as if a very oversprung poor leverage lockback. Would very much prefer something as a large well leveraged midlock back with an opening hole such as Spyderco uses, but with blades such as pictured here, including Reeve cutting edges near total blade length and stop stud in blade against frame front. Nothing even close, aside from an absurdly large Spyderco lockback, which, of course, I had to buy, even though blade too thin to scale for such a large knife.

Still waiting.


Edited by Lofty (05/11/18 10:27 PM)
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#171069 - 05/10/18 10:25 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
As a separate post, which was forgotten to be inserted into the carbon fiber Sebenza post, is a following review/torture test.

Keeping in mind that any sprung lock will bounce during severe shock to blade, and that if a second shock happen while lock fully or partially bounced into unlocked, will only magnify deformation of locking surfaces and/or collapse blade at moment of stress. The liner or frame lock acts as a compressed and expanding leaf spring during such use. All a matter of timing and luck, bad or good, when clubbing one like a baby seal.

Of main interest will be in how a standard Sebenza 21 with S35Vn blade, pivot, and handle hold up, even when half carbon fiber. Hard to fault the knife, or deny it being a big tough folder. Certainly more than tough enough for something of its thin profile and feathery weight. In line with above questions as to lack of tougher knives earlier, same with carbon fiber which had to have been brought up far far earlier, and remains only a quite recent dealer exclusive, period.

Do I think the damascus edge would have fared as well? Not at all. But, I am one of those unimpressed by edge holding champs which chip when something hard is struck, and which in a silly old fashioned way, consider not chipping as part of edge holding of a far more critical nature than only needing to iron out edge with a smooth steel to complete a job .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxCKW1KiGp4


Edited by Lofty (05/11/18 02:25 AM)
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#171077 - 05/11/18 08:40 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 6683
Loc: Garden Valley, Idaho
Great posts and very informative. My EDC is a large Sebenza.

Pap
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#171082 - 05/11/18 10:20 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
I know you were involved in the old Reeve thread from way back, and if you are not throwing rocks, yet, maybe I am safe? Glad you found some things of interest or perhaps some new little tidbit. The large Sebenza is my favorite of the lot as for Reeve, giving nearly old Spyderco Endura size/weight/thickness with one heck of a lot stiffer handle, and far better deep cutter/slicer grind with stronger edge and tip, all while being just as rust resistant. Personally, unless heavy dutiest is what is needed, I would say the buyer is getting more of the premium price precision for which they are paying, in the Sebenza line, too, and why I still buy them over the heavier, simpler/more conventional build, Inkosi, even with the recent targeted 10% price hike slammed on the poor large Sebenza.

Chris was very very big early on as for his knives needing to be rust resistant, not much mentioned today in the now mainly stainless world, his original South Afrika digs of Durban a steamy Indian Ocean coastal city and environment such as Galveston/New Orleans/Mobile/Ft Walton/Panama City miasma in being murder on unprotected or non-stainless. He no doubt had salty fog mornings INSIDE his workplaces, and knew the frustration of rusting good tools and the value of a good sharp cutter in the workplace.

Separate tidbit, as for damascus Reeve knives, I know the composition of ladder and basketweave they use from Devin Thomas, but, ignorant of the Chad Nichols raindrop they use. Formerly, it was all Thomas, but Reeve started demanding larger blanks, Thomas' pattern opened up due to increased rolling/pressing, he knew the fix would require $6000 or more worth of new dies, and from end result, would guess neither he nor Reeve wanted to pay for them.

Did not make clear, but I also like the damascus as it skirts my mental conflicts with older and newer grinds and finishes....it has the new stronger grind, but is not pre-scratched stonewash, yet still hides scratches better than the higher finish, while still looking elegant. A win all the way around, aside for $200 premium on the knives. If you go to either damascus maker, you will see Reeve essentially charging what an individual would pay for a blank, just as a preemptive strike as to griping, in which case you can gripe as to not being given $35 credit for the exchanged S35Vn blank along with less wear and tear on belts....whatever.


The no-guesswork Rc on the damascus quoted by Reeve currently is 56-58, which is a large spread, but totally understandable when knowing them using damascus from two different suppliers. Almost certain they hit 57-58 with the known and long used Thomas stuff and using known AEB-L heat treat including cryo quench to keep the fine grained micro carbide dispersion for which the steel famous.

Lifted damascus quote off the Thomas site...."Roman Landes and John Verhoeven have both done different tests with AEB-L. In CATRA testing Dr. Verhoeven found AEB-L to outcut 52100, 1086, and Wootz damascus. He also found AEB-L to be able to take a smaller edge radius than 52100 in controlled sharpening tests. Roman Landes found AEB-L to have greater edge stability, toughness, and wear resistance than 52100. Edge stability is a property that describes a steel's ability to hold a finely sharpened edge. 52100 is one of the most well respected carbon steels, and is well known for its small carbides, high toughness, and high edge stability, so it's impressive that AEB-L was able to beat it in these categories, while also having greater wear resistance and being a stainless steel. Many users have reported that AEB-L sharpens as easily as any other carbon steel they have used." ...A reality check being not one of those holds a candle to raw paper cutting of the S35Vn. But, obviously a really good tough steel, and will add quite a bit tougher than the mentioned 52100-B mentioned above.

One other tidbit, mainly for the flicker crowd, or those still young enough to worry over outliving their Sebenza rather than next pair of shoes, but....has to do with the Sebenza stop pin bushing and the beating it takes, and long term use and wear. Given the stop pin is the final reference which spells out how much lock engagement is on opposite side of blade when opened, if you ever feel your lock is engaging deeper and deeper due to "wear", you might find that wear mysteriously vanishes when the stop pin bushing/spacer rotated to get undeformed metal surface in contact with back of blade. This also can be a local machine shop fix many moons from now in having a guy turn a new spacer of same length and inside diameter, and to slightly larger outside diameter, and likely from existing standard bushing predrilled stock.


Simply because I can, a gratuitous shot of the basketweave damascus by Pablo Picasso, or, maybe Devin Thomas. And right after opening several heavily taped manila bubble mailers and being wiped on yon towel. Showing blade portion can always be re-etched at home when it finally wears. Do NOT etch hinge portion of blade.



Edited by Lofty (05/11/18 03:53 PM)
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#171093 - 05/11/18 02:16 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Added Inkosi vs Sebenza photos here, rather than stacked in previous post as promised, previously, as well. Which makes me a liar, and you can trust me on that.

Note hugely larger diameter pivot and freefloating blade stop pin (held captive by cap screw on far scale). Strong.

Pet peeves, starting with lanyard. Original Sebenzas had only a hole, later filled with a blue anodized cross-drilled bit of rod, the lanyard threaded thru cross-drilled hole and actually retaining it. A nice bit of color to match stud up front. Lanyards must be snug to not strike blade tip.

Hole now eliminated, and lanyard relocated directly into heel of palm. If removed, a very bland knife, indeed.

Formerly Reeve made great hay as to ease of access to lock bar over liner locks, now eliminated via fingergrooves/ambi-thumb-stud....
"A difference between the Sebenza and other liner locks is that you can get in behind the lock of a Sebenza and push it over. With the others, you can only push from the top of the liner which is a less effective movement."-Anne Reeve 11/03/98
Am rubbing this one in, as it is absolutely true, and what got me into integral locks, along with stronger lock face and bar, where you WANT the extra room to overcome that strength.

New hardware up front not as well finished as standard hardware, a mismatch on premium knife, and downgrade missed at shop.

In short, my opinion, only, good idea, still needs work. But, if you need strong but Sebenza size, here it is, only weight difference essentially the heavier blade.







Given the sandblasted scales, and current stonewashed blade, a very monochromatic knife, the Sebenza blue touches at front and rear a welcome touch. Aesthetically, it seems to lose something with the monolithic simpler threaded spacer.




Highlighting the above mentioned access to locking bar. I find the finger grooves well shaped, but, from a marketing standpoint, grooves can also eliminate half the prospective buyers simply due to mismatch.



The Inkosi features fixed larger diameter, non-rotating thrust bearing washers which butt against stop pin, making assembly/reassembly less fiddly.



I have no clue as to notch in heavier Inkosi blade. Assumption it being to be held by tooling, just as famous/infamous Sebenza scale hole is from blanks drilled and stacked on a mandrel for exterior circumference initial shape cutting (something obviously licked on the new frames).

My closing comments might be only a question, in that, yes, the Sebenza is getting a bit long in the tooth, and dated. Dated from the standpoint of more massive construction, running through entire knife world, thicker locks, thicker blades, larger pivots and stops, thicker edges and tips, swoopier ergonomics, simpler construction needing less precise tolerances, fancy bushings, etc.. But, is trying to cram all of that into a standard large Sebenza shaped handle the answer? Is it even really needed? Perhaps, instead, an all new knife incorporating all of that? And getting external feedback (from outsiders, different observations from not as close to the center), before going full tilt production?

Again, no denying they nailed a stronger Sebenza sized knife. As far as successor goes, will let market be the judge of that. It IS a big tough folder, and better than many.


(maybe I should instigate a media and marketing storm with hashtags, tweets, instagrammys or whatever, convince everybody to run go buy a Sebenza and NOW, get Fox News involved, and see what becomes of the Inkosi?.....or.....I could munch on a bag of Chile Cheese Fritos?............Fritos.)


Edited by Lofty (05/11/18 10:35 PM)
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#171097 - 05/11/18 05:39 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: pappy19]
Holzinger258 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pappy19
Great posts and very informative. My EDC is a large Sebenza. Pap

Agreed--for quite a while, my EDC was a large Sebenza. About a year ago, I moved to a small Inkosi, and like it very much.


Attachments
------Lg. Sebenza & Sm. Inkosi.jpg


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#171098 - 05/11/18 06:26 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Holzinger258]
Lofty Offline
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The small Inkosi is a really great knife, a smaller than small Sebenza EDC for folk, and yet stronger, really hitting on something new. As with the smaller Hinderers, really tough big little knife, capable of a suprising amount of heavy lifting.

Yes, not unnoticed is the cool older Sebenza Regular, pre-dating the Classic (no handle jimping and ran concurrent with regular in answer to complaints) and its/their successor, the 21,... the Regular pretty much the second major variation, I think? If someone wants to call tweaks to blade and handle profiles and beveling styles major variations to something otherwise essentially unchanged over a quarter of a century, (which sorta spells c-l-a-s-s-i-c, to me, if I kould spell).



Now, where did I put that bag of Fritos?

A forgotten damascus scratching/performance PS....meant to give folk pondering the damascus premium cost an idea as to how it handles scratches from use. Most here are familiar with the bright little spiderweb scratches on their Randall or whatever blade grinds, sparkling only at certain light levels and angles. If you applied those same type things to a thinning but intact, mottled parkerize, that is what you have with the damascus, and them running through a WWI zigzag/razzle-dazzle camo of light and dark, which also show best in certain light strength and angles, while blurring in others. In short, it ages gracefully.

There also is a slight amount more of drag in cuts, but only noticeable at all on certain substances, and nothing objectionable unless you insist on a laser beam for all things, all the time, and good luck with that. Otherwise, the damascus same as the mono-steel, and a veritable potato peeler when carving green wood.

As a post script to all the raving over the 21 and picking the Inkosi to death, as someone primed and ready to slam anything new, well... all quite wonderful, excepting that simply would not be the case. When I saw the Inkosi, knew only about heavier blade, luuuuved the sheepsfoot, and noticed the beefed up pivot and stop, I snapped up one as fast as one could be tracked down, fully expecting my lighter 21s to be permanently retired, and me have a near unbreakable Sebenza. Which turned out to be true, but, at a far greater cost to the original design elegance than I ever expected.


Edited by Lofty (05/12/18 01:07 AM)
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#171107 - 05/12/18 11:47 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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The previous postings as to complexity of the 21 design actually still managed to skip several aspects of the perfection Chris Reeve was originally shooting for in his knife.

Getting back to the perfectly parallel side flats of the handle, perfectly gapped by precision spacer bushings. He wanted those for a reason. If you take two parallel lines, a certain space apart, you can insert a slightly smaller rectangle between them, with almost zero clearance.

When you bend the lines together at one end, as a clamping pivot screw will do, you introduce slop and uneven wear, loose behind the screw, and tightest up front, and add binding at the very front. Most folk have seen this on knives able to be disassembled, the heavier arc of wear over only half the blade. Which will cause looseness to develop twice as fast over half the area. Mr. Reeve was doing everything he could, to make the perfect folding knife. With the Sebenza, the screw runs down freely until it bottoms in hole whereupon almost as hitting a brick wall, there is so little play in system taken up by any flexing. The pivot screw has only two positions, snug or snugger, otherwise the screw is loose, threads not being stretched for locking, and vibrates free of own accord.

Another aspect are his spoked/slotted/perforated thrust bearing washers (think wagon wheel). They have reduced surface contact with handle slabs and with knife blade. As mentioned prior, free to rotate between blade and slabs. There is some talk, but sounds plausible, that since these are free to slowly work their way around, that they act as surface scrapers, piling up lube ahead of leading edge of spokes, and applying to the blade.

The Inkosi even larger diameter but even more radically spoked washers, simply sit there. Same reduced surface contact area, perhaps even less area, but not even going there. There is also some talk about them, completely implausible, that they still act as "lube pockets", implausible because any lube down in the spoke recesses of the stamped/lased washers, once scraped flush, is just going to sit there.

With both types, they would certainly act as trash dumps, allowing fine particulate matter to be scraped from blade/washer surface, and collect in those little hollows between the spokes.

There is a luxurious amount of precision in the 21, issues dealt with via over the top precision, where everyone else solves same unequal wear problems by simply changing washers more often. They are, after all, a consumable item, and why you will not hear me weigh in on interminable teflon vs phosphor bronze washer arguments, them being both disposable and interchangeable. Reeve, unlike Hinderer, will not sell you a pack, simply because they require fitting, the tolerances are so close. Same with the pivot bushing on the 21 blade. But, anyone can trot out and buy standard washers of proper ID/OD and near thickness, and give them a rub until they fit, in a pinch.

It is a precision machine, and why the premium, at least, until late new knives and strange price games with older. But, you still get what you pay for, even if now paying more. Same as with older internal combustion engines, far more (theoretically, at least) replaceable/rebuildable parts/surfaces subject to wear. A luxury item, where one pays for meticulous excess, and receives it. Which is altogether different than the common modern trend of paying more for nothing aside from conspicuous consumption bragging rights.

It is still a grand big tough folder. If I had to currently nail down "EDC", somewhat over the top would be the big Hinderer, the Spyderco PacSalt pocket chain saw for when things need to be ripped and NOW, the G43, and the carbon fiber 21, along with the ever present SAK or Pathfinder with a screwdriver blade. Normally would be approaching weight/bulk overload IWB, but the carbon fiber is so light and flat, it dodges being the straw that broke this aging man's back, and lets me have a REALLY sharp large knife with me. Will be honest and say the REALLY sharp knife not needed near as much as the other two on a daily basis, but, nice to have. When looser warm weather clothing hits, as in now, a larger fixed blade over the Hinderer, and things open up a bit as for choices in room and access, given fixed blade goes to left side, often under belt rather than IWB (makes a difference, that), and all sorts of room for the relatively dinky PacSalt and 21. Of all, the PacSalt chainsaw, and the SAK with screwdriver blade and plain blade are ALWAYS there. Never leave home without it, right, Karl?


Edited by Lofty (05/12/18 01:39 PM)
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#171109 - 05/12/18 02:23 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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A short essay as to why the 25% lighter, piano wood feel, carbon fiber, and tougher damascus, simply are great from the aesthetic end, on pulling a Sebenza together. (Curiously, it also makes the hi-tech but simple Reeve appear as something simple but nice from 200 yrs ago, and could likely slip it in such a dated display with 90% plus of viewers never noting the difference.)

And also the neat quirks of stainless damascus and light/angles, from shimmer to stark.













(Goes to show also not all carbon fiber cloth created equal, as for aerospace grade weave, and likewise as to voids in some laminates, luckily no voids in this middle 2yr older version. Look before you buy, or make sure of return privilege if not happy, and smoke it over good, from ANYbody.)

Absolute unrelated Reeve trivia, brought only to mind by "smoke it over" written above. Perhaps already mentioned, bears repeating anyhow, but titanium scales are date coded, A-D for quarter, and then year, such as D-17. Mismatch from factory is common enough to be unremarkable, but huge mismatch indicating a Frankenreeve. Locks/blades/bushings/pivots a matched set, so take care if shopping used. Should not be a wobbly flicker, not in the design at all.


Edited by Lofty (05/12/18 10:44 PM)
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#171112 - 05/12/18 05:04 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
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Lofty--

Reading your posts led to me pulling out my Ed Fowler knife to share a photo of the 4-inch blade with you and others.

You probably have read Ed's information online about the steel and his methods for making the best blade that he can turn out.

My thought, which must not be original, is: Wonder how to get Ed's performance into a Heavy Duty Folder?

I have not followed him closely enough to have read anywhere that this has been done or attempted, but if I get to talk to him at the Blade Show I will ask him about it.

"If" the photo comes through here, you will see the grain patterns in the blade. And if you want to read Ed's information online it should be at this link that I found in my files: http://www.edfowler.com/index.php

Larry


Attachments
------Ed Fowler knife.jpg


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#171114 - 05/12/18 06:50 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Lofty Offline
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I have often wished the same, myself. I followed Ed back in the day, so to speak, along with many others, back before even an ABS, and why my most trustworthy blades, the ONE I would grab, would be an ABS MS knife from one of several makers, any would get me through anything, or I would be the thing which failed. And there are many never heard of, who perhaps are even better, as they are too busy making knives, rather than writing, promoting, running for office, or trying to hit it big, etc etc.

One problem with that concept always bugged me. Nobody yet has come out with a lock worthy of such a blade. The Hinderer is close in 3 out of 4 axis. But that closing axis is the killer.

Every popular lock is sprung closed, or in the case of liner/frame locks, IS the spring. Any will bounce under shock, leading to anywhere between all and none of lock surface engaging, lesser surface contacts under shock causing severe deformation and failure far sooner. Great examples of such being spine whacks with most any plain liner or integral can bounce/squirt one unlocked, likewise lockbacks can see-saw madly while buzzing from shock, and even the highly regarded Axis lock disengaged with a moderate blow to pommel.

The all lose to inertia, as enough inertia will compress a spring.

I have puzzled over this and have come up with several workable solid locks, using suchlike a 1/4" horizontal dowel as used on stop studs simply camming down into track on back of blade of an out the front slider of close tolerance. The out the front takes care of all but straight back failure right out of the starting gate, being surrounded by handle (strong enough handle). But am not the machinist to make it, nor driven enough to more than armchair general such things.

But a fine blade would really be a waste if handle and lock not up to what such a blade could do, otherwise a Rolls winged victory on an Isuzu.

oh...and simple congratulations on owning a blade by Ed. It would be hard to imagine better and it be steel. Dan Maragni has attacked the same ideas of superlative, even defining them (as they all must do, just for a target), via a completely different route in inducing such transformations of molecular structure via various heat treating, soaking, quenching cycles including molten salt baths, interrupting at one state, and taking the steel an entirely different direction than it would naturally. Some of the simple, but exceedingly pure and fine grained steels to come out of Sweden and Germany have been another approach to the same thing. What defines them all is, what are you expecting it to do when you are finished? A literal finest edge possible razor/scalpel steel will not make the best all day dirty hide stripper, and the best hide stripper a poor wood or bone splitter. I recall Rick Hinderer relating his choices of steel and unpolished edging, with a personal account of years ago wanting to make the ultimate sharp knife, sharpest ever made, truly fine enough to split a human hair, and he succeeded, using a microscope, even. The thing was, that same ultimate edge was terrible on most everything else. The steel composition lacked protruding carbides at the edge, and the edge lacked physical tooth to cut anything else.

Back to ultimate forged blade for ultimate tough folder, until we get a better handle and lock, we may have the best blades we deserve. As an aside, I cannot help but chuckle in thinking what some of the best bladesmiths might turn out for a folder, many of them may be among the best bladesmiths of all time, but engineer or mechanism designer they ain't...I am picturing a solid maple wood handle and wire inlay with bent nail through blade, even now, called The Early American.


Edited by Lofty (05/13/18 01:44 AM)
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#171116 - 05/12/18 07:42 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Truth in advertising statement regarding carbon fiber lay-up, lest someone try to hunt me down, later, what with all my rah rah over the Reeve.

It is incredibly light, stiff, and strong, but one runs into the same thing as the wondersteels. It is so hard and stiff as to seem indestructible, until its yield point is reached, whereupon when it goes, it goes. Meanwhile the titanium does the normal steel thing and just springs or takes a set. With carbon fiber, you would just swear it was balsa wood cracking when it lets go. If that ever happens, stay the heck away from protruding fibers, they make a cactus look like a nerf ball, are glass brittle and break at the touch, whether going in, or, trying to get them out.

Not that I lose any sleep over it, as talking stresses where one would KNOW something is gonna give, whether handle or blade. At the level of, "hmmm, I can leave it all titanium and for sure break the blade doing this," to, "hmmm, I can use the carbon fiber for this, and see which breaks first, the blade or handle." For any other use, any, it would be plenty strong, including hardest and most energetic frenzied cutting/carving. But with so much carbon fiber in use today, especially open framed folding knives, folk DO need to understand the stuff breaks, and ugly when it does.


Edited by Lofty (05/13/18 03:13 PM)
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#171124 - 05/13/18 10:04 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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As for DS and his mentioned Winkler want.
I keep looking at it, as it is about as simple as they get, seems to break no new ground in handle/lock/pivot strength, but, his tough yet suprisingly good slicer blade with a very tough 80CRv2 steel. For sure a knife (as mentioned in above Fowler musings) where handle would give out long before the blade.

Truthfully, no idea at all of pivot diameter, liner/lock thickness, what size bolts/screws support open handle inside those spacers, size of blade stop, nor any real construction details.

He surely has ratcheted up the aesthetics/ergonomics from his original F1 to current F3 model. Equally surely, it would be tough, although not huge with 3.25" blade of 0.156" starting stock already tapering ahead of bolster to 0.140". Only circa 1/2 oz heavier than the carbon fiber Reeve, 3.6 oz vs 4 oz. Beefy handle/lock vs beefy tough blade. Depends on use and user. I like BOTH. So, out of luck.









Am hoping a Winkler F3 owner will chime in here for more details for those with inquiring minds and need to know.

For those curious as to the 'Caswell' finish, Caswell is a metal finishes company, supplying the industry. A more common finish supplied is a tool blacking compound, such as on impact tools, which I suspect this is. A black oxide coat, and then sealer. Winkler knives out there now also with KG, likely industrial epoxy, not sure if added powdered ceramic/teflon/whatever. The Caswell actually a good coating for military abuse knives where any finish short lived anyhow, already a bare edge which grows...mutes shine.


Edited by Lofty (05/14/18 07:47 PM)
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#171143 - 05/14/18 07:37 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Just an updated fairer comparison between models for size reference....titled "Still Life With Juvenile And Hoity Toity".





Edited by Lofty (05/14/18 07:45 PM)
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#171198 - 05/16/18 08:56 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Byrdguy Offline
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Appears to be a bit thicker than the Seb.
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#171206 - 05/16/18 11:44 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Byrdguy]
Lofty Offline
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Oh, yeah...the dinky 3" XM is about the same thickness as the larger Reeve Inkosi. Hinderer knives are stout. In this comparison shot, you are looking at 0.125" compared to 0.165". The Reeve a better cutter, the Hinderer more bulletproof and will take what might bust a Reeve, question being, "do you need that?".

You would far rather use the Reeve for daily paper cutting, the Hinderer ok for such but its forte coarse heavy cutting with massive material removal, digging in and rooting around, moderate prying, heavy ziptie cuff busting, etc. Stouter handle on the Hinderer, but any open back flexes a lot under stress, just as a convertible automobile, you will find locks seated deeper on any with much prying/twisting.

The only real comparison between the two is that the Hinderer made top to bottom to be an overbuilt tank, the Reeve meant to be the strongest possible minimalist pure folding knife. Totally different visions.


Edited by Lofty (05/16/18 11:52 AM)
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#171242 - 05/17/18 02:24 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
needfull things Offline
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Thanks Lofty.
Nice write up with good info.

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#171245 - 05/17/18 04:37 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: needfull things]
Lofty Offline
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My thanks for your thanks. My impression of manufacturer/maker forums in general is that 10-15yrs ago there existed intelligent, critically thinking folk, with a broad knowledge base, who accrued a tremendous amount of wisdom, regarding both pros and cons of certain items.

In the time since then, those sites taken over by 13yr old fanboys on their very first knife or gun, whose major pastime is character assassination on facebook or whatever, and who have never read one jot of anything written before them posting.

Making factual and honest comparisons between various newer made things virtually impossible, and finding such information prior to buying to be actually impossible.

Having had to buy most things blind, waste a good amount of money on highly promoted junk, it is only my hope folk know what something actually is, before plonking down their money, and perhaps even know whether to want that particular item. I do not write about junk, but only good stuff, ...but even the best logging boots are not for a stock exchange broker or pizza delivery guy.


Edited by Lofty (05/17/18 04:42 PM)
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#171254 - 05/18/18 08:27 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Byrdguy Offline
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What's that Fo five in the pic? Colt?
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#171257 - 05/18/18 10:45 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Byrdguy]
Lofty Offline
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yep, same as discussed in .45 thread here somewhere half recently. Base stainless Govt Model, brown water Navy issue grips.
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#171323 - 05/21/18 01:38 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
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Lofty--

Having carried a certain folder as a "beater" for 1-1/2 decades, which has a blade of 154CM, I am looking around for one that has a CPM-S90V blade. That steel appears to come closest to optimizing the four qualities that we look for in a blade.

My problem with 154CM is it just doesn't hold an edge very well. I don't normally and don't expect to use a knife in a twisting, pounding, bending mode, so looking at the chart that (for example) Benchmade includes on page 100 of its online catalog, "if" theirs or somebody else's knife with the CPM-S90V actually delivers the combination of features that they summarize there, then I would go with that purchase.

Edge retention, in my opinion, should be the first priority with a knife that is intended to actually cut. Somewhere, maybe on a previous post, I wrote about the Small Sebenza that I got rid of "way back when" because it would not hold an edge. I am glad Reeve eventually updated their steel--but I have not kept up with just how well their Sebenza series actually hold an edge these days.

I am waiting for a reply from Benchmade who I asked for a list of their knives that use CPM-S90V. Maybe that will include a model for me.

Larry
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RKCC #CM-041
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#171325 - 05/21/18 01:47 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
pappy19 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/07
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I used a Benchmade with the Spyderco design and ATS 34 steel. It really held an edge. I retired it after 12 years for a Chris Reeve.

Pap
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#171327 - 05/21/18 08:43 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Peter_Kaufman Offline
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Lofty
I have really enjoyed this thread and appreciate all of the time you have put into the research of heavy duty folders.
My daily carry is a Benchmade Axis flipper 154CM steel, not overly robust but good for a lefty.
I have a Spartan Harsey folder but have never used it but it appears pretty solid, have you any experience with those?

Peter
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#171328 - 05/21/18 11:08 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Peter_Kaufman]
Lofty Offline
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Peter, I have done nothing but look at listings, my only experience with Spartan was a cool looking Horkos, which was a nice stout compact knife, but edge so thick for toughness that I found it not much better a knife for cutting than issue Ontario stuff. If I were still doing the bust pallet straps thing with it, no doubt would love it. Very well made knife, and the heat treat (they have done?) is spot on for the steel.

Titanium hardware is not as strong as steel, nor as wear resistant, but kept clean and lubed, there is no denying weight savings add up when about everything but blade, lockbar insert, and stop pin made of the stuff...be careful with slots/recesses/threads, and do not crank on them as if steel, nor anywhere close.

For the curious, such as self, found this as for pivot and stop pin diameter...offhand, from specs, would rate it about Inkosi or 3.5" Hinderer XM-18 all around. Quite tough.



Edited by Lofty (05/22/18 03:58 PM)
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#171329 - 05/22/18 02:48 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
needfull things Offline
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Pappy, was the Benchmade you carried for 15 years happen to be the AFCK by any chance?
I have one and understand why you liked it. Me too..

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#171330 - 05/22/18 02:58 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: needfull things]
Lofty Offline
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Mine was the AFCK for sure, bought before even their Emerson hit the market. Made with royalties to Spyderco, and a rude awakening to same when the modern linerlock taktikool market took off like a rocket. They immediately deployed their military model in response, and were playing catch-up.


Edited by Lofty (05/22/18 03:01 AM)
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#171365 - 05/24/18 04:29 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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By way of closing out, any folder will offer less blade to handle ratio... MOST times, as yes, some fixed blades have gianormous handles, but, generally, in same length knives, a fixed blade gives more blade and less handle.

The below four are almost identical length, and are identical 3/16ths"+ thickness, the folder having an inch more handle and an inch less blade. But obviously more compact in carry mode.



In ultimate yield, the folder will fail before the fixed blade, on liner/integral/frame locks, the locking bar already prebent, and eventually will buckle at base. The fixed blade solid handle far stiffer than a hollow box.



All a matter of compromise and choices...circa 5" of blade and 4" of handle, or visa versa, more easily carried, yes/no, how strong does it have to be, anyhow....



For any questions on the fixed blades (preemptive, "yes, they are Winkler, blame DS"), will do a separate thread under proper topic heading in "fixed blades" in the next few days.
Sorry for blurred photos, literally too much coffee. Need MORE.


Edited by Lofty (05/24/18 07:12 PM)
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#171374 - 05/25/18 05:31 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Eric Offline
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Loc: Michigan
Lofty, Great read, especially with coffee and Fritos.

OX Enterprises makes a tough auto. Definitely not as tough as a Hinderer though.


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#171378 - 05/25/18 09:01 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Eric]
Lofty Offline
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Now, THAT one I know well, could be ordered through supply, and many many own them. I actually just passed on buying an older one, had talked to a pal who wore his out as a crew chief and who sent back to Charles for the spa treatment. Good knife, as far as autos go, and back 20-25yrs ago mostly a black market "psst, wanna buy a SEAL auto?" thing. Charles sells to military, while only civilians who can buy one are cops (who ARE civilian, contrary to their wishes to be thought a branch of military).

A great and detailed article, down a post or two..
https://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_forum/viewtopic.php?t=50584


Edited by Lofty (05/25/18 09:07 PM)
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#171487 - 05/31/18 12:38 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
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Loc: the other side of the earth
Very useful article about black knife, thank you! smile

Recently I took this knife, it's very used,
but given that Strider stopped serial production,
focusing on custom knives, this is a good buy.

Initially, I had doubts about originality,
since there are many manual changes here,
but an attentive scan showed that
this is a standard SnG Lego with S30V steel.

He has a comfortable grip, although I would like
to have even more thickness of handle.

He very badly cut a wood because of a thin handle
and also it prevents to cut thick rubber and plastic,
that is those things where it is necessary
to apply great pressure. On the other hand,
I have rather tender hands and I do not use
tactical gloves. In general, it is very durable
and performs all the necessary work.








One of my friends was testing the folding Strider,
if you are interested you can see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAz4zhBvx4o&t=878s
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#171493 - 05/31/18 08:49 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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I appreciate the review, having never handled one of Mick's knives. Considering where you are at, lucky to see one at all. I looked up shipping to Russia (no idea if that is your location), and it seems impossible to ship knives into the country, from here. I once bought a knife from Romania, it arrived here with no problem at all.

Mick Strider, it seems, essentially gave his knife to the SEALS in order to get it approved after they played with/tested it, and in return was named one team's official knife, or something like that. Whereupon, he immediately began capitalizing on the association.

Many makers have done same thing, while a few have not, and stayed quite reserved in naming names, something I admire.

I note that knife of yours has the Hinderer stabilizer. Hinderer, I think, is one who really worked at making such a knife work for the hand, and a pity I cannot simply drop one in the mail for you to try, compare, and write up. I have not been curious enough over Strider to buy one for same purpose, purely because it seems to do the same thing.

And yes, I realize Mick Strider was likely making such knives before Hinderer by several years, near as I know. A Strider expert is free to fill in all manner of details unknown to me.

Thanks again for the review. I see no modification which would have hurt performance, but only attempts to make it likely work better. Not like I do not convex some blades to get them where they should be.

Hard to go by only one photo, but it appears Strider used a non-stainless steel for the blade pivot, or very low chromium stainless with not much rust resistance. Plain steel in contact with carbon fiber is going to be a problem with galvanic corrosion with any moisture in environment. And it seems the carbon fiber side of pivot is indeed corroding.

Non-conductive lubricants can help, but, your best bet is to remove the parts touching the carbon fiber, clean off existing corrosion, and apply a thin coat of paint to the areas which contact that side of knife. No need to coat interior of anything, but only those surfaces directly contacting the carbon fiber. No need to coat entire pivot or internal threads, or where blade rotates, etc.

Could be entirely wrong, but the symptoms seem there, from the one photo. Could be only lighting, reflection, or just coating doing same galvanic breakdown, but be advised of that possibility, anyhow, with any knife having carbon fiber. Many makers do not consider such in designs.


Edited by Lofty (06/01/18 12:00 PM)
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#171496 - 06/01/18 05:24 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
Thanks for the clarification, I did not know about such problems with carbon fiber!

With delivery there are no problems, I a lot of bought
and sold on ebay. Problems were only with fixed blades,
local customs do not like knives with a blade longer
than 9 cm and with a guard, they sent them back.

As for the Hinderer and Strider, I'm not an expert on them.
Strider was more common here, I think because the standard
models were somewhat cheaper than Hinderer and there
are many Chinese counterfeits of the Strider at a low price,
the Hinderer is much smaller in total.
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#171832 - 06/13/18 01:15 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Eric Offline
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Registered: 11/18/15
Posts: 1661
Loc: Michigan
This is a Terzuola Titanium Folder - 1 or TTF-1

I dug this one up to add it here. I carried it maybe twice and put it away. It has a very smooth action. Locks up tight. I believe this to be a Tough folder.


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Edited by Eric (06/13/18 01:16 PM)
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#171835 - 06/13/18 02:15 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Eric]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Re: Hinderer flippers

I handled a couple at the Blade Show, robust enough for me!

Did not buy since I want a tip-up carry on the left side. Sean told me they are working on that, and to keep eyes on the website.

I did notice that the ones I handled did not flip open fully unless a lot of force was put into it. This is in contrast to other makers' knives I have where they use the IKBS bearing system.

I don't know if a maker has to pay for using the IKBS system...? And what that might do to the price of the knife.

Also don't know how well the IKBS system holds up under various loading parameters when the knife is in use. I have not gone looking for any such information, and realize it might hold up very well.

While I might want the Hinderer to be as smooth as the IKBS knives, I would not want to have to flip it repeatedly to get it to "wear in" as a way to reduce friction--to me, that equates to "wear out" in the long run.

Then again, maybe some of the "slick as snot" lubricants would be all that the Hinderer would need to smooth up the action.

Just thinking out loud...any experience from others is welcome as I wait for the lefty version Hinderer to come on the market.

Larry
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#171836 - 06/13/18 04:25 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Lofty Offline
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The tension is adjustable, Larry, and they leave the shop in maximum safe mode....mine fall open as soon as ball detent is past.

If those bearings you mention are caged in steel, all is well and good. Ball bearing steel will chew any other metal to bits, especially blade steel and titanium. If they are simply milling races into blade and interior of liner or frame, it is a very poor idea.

Again, any of these are adjustable, including Sebenzas, but at loss of lockbar tension against side of blade, and in locking force. The hand in a normal grip will prevent unlocking. Abnormal grips or abnormal force pushing bar to unlocked position, all bets are off, even if left at factory setting.

There are several aspects to tuning one of them, Sebenza, Hinderer, etc. First order of biz is to get your favorite grease down inside and on the detent ball area of the lock. Getting that detent ball to pop free of dimple in blade a major factor in ease. But, if too easy, will not pop free and "fire" as some want. I do not mind a bit of wrist action, and pretty much required anyhow on the largest blade due to inertia.

Next aspect is pivot tension, only circa 6° of screw rotation is the difference between dragging hard, and loosey goosey with blade sideplay.

Last area to adjust, and only last, is lockbar tension. Simply tweak it outboard. On the Hinderer, the stabilizer will need be removed with a 0.05" hex drive (say WIHA). And if that sounds too simple, it is. Because 90% of time, what will happen is overshoot, and lock nowhere close to engaging as deeply as original. Why adjust at all? Because of tremendous drag on side of blade by detent ball and bar, set normally very heavy by anybody who cares about safety. I have an Inkosi which came with so much inboard tension that when screws were removed and friction fit of parts broken, the lockbar exploded the knife into a spontaneously disassembled state, but you betcha that lock was safe. Also, it makes a huge amount of difference in getting the detent ball to pop out of detent.

With it overshot, now what? Only one way to approach. It cannot be bent back to proper tension, which always requires a bit of overshoot, with blade and far side of knife in way. So, now, entire knife must be disassembled (ie, lockside removed), tweaked the other way, and hopefully not right back to where it was the first time. Some of this can be checked simply with lockside, blade and pivot.

It takes some acquaintance and developing a feel, and hats off to the assemblers, who must follow boss guidelines for a safe and strong knife.

As for lefty version, a halfway measure is already out, a scale with drilled liner made to take clip screws on far side, either end. I have no need, and hate extra holes, so....but, that much is out there already.


Edited by Lofty (06/13/18 07:38 PM)
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#171837 - 06/13/18 04:48 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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No big tough folder thread would be complete without one of the humongous Cold Steel offerings.

The thickness on this one is circa Inkosi, while the yaller knife of thickness as original Sebenza, just for a helpful visual on those two, as well.

The weight is in between the Spyderco and Hinderer XM 24 in photo, circa XM 18 3.5" blade weight.

This one dates from back when CS and Spyderco had yet to screw metal clips to plastic, then the yaller knife barrel nut, then total screw assembly of knife, and then also heavier metal liner. Just the old simple one piece of plastic and two solid rivets for blade and lock. Nothing to strip, come unscrewtabled, life was light and breezy back then. A favorite. If you want something HUGE, light, flat, easy to carry, and strong, you will not go wrong with one of these.

Will leave obvious pivot diameter out of discussion, but every static test of lock strength still shows a lockback strongest, with handles breaking before lock fails, while bent metal locks invariably continue to curve, especially down low, and either free the blade or hopelessly jam it. As for how tough the Zytel handles on any, I know of a guy in northern Europe who left a plain edged version of my yaller knife outside all night at -65°F, brought it in and batoned with it, no problem, then smacked open knife handle sides with a hammer, and it cracked, but knife still serviceable.









Edited by Lofty (06/13/18 06:13 PM)
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#171838 - 06/13/18 05:20 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Lofty Offline
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Posts: 656
Eric, that is one fine solid knife there, for sure. With today's increased pivot diameters, increased lock thickness, light strong metals construction, we are in a golden age of folders.

Lockbacks, too, nice and big and tough, eclipse the days when the Buck 110 and Harley Sportster ruled the bad boy roost. Bob makes excellent knives (and that spearpoint blade looks tough as nails), and so does Mel Pardue, who pretty much has moved on to liner locks, today.



And, Eric, I have never seen the Terzuola up close, and very much appreciate the close-ups of construction. I might need to git me one o' doze. As for packaging, Hinderer has him beat, his knives come in a zip lock, and ziplock inside a small flip top cardboard box with extra room taken up by a free handful of tactical foam peanuts. AND a signed inspection/assembly card the size of a business card. They all leave the nice current presentation boxes of goodies to Reeve, and nice, it is.


Edited by Lofty (06/15/18 12:26 AM)
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#171855 - 06/14/18 12:29 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Lofty--
Thanks for your insights. I will almost certainly buy a Hinderer, having had various others discussed here.
_____
Side thought: The Spydercos are disappointing...in that the sharpness coming out of the factory cannot be matched once the knife is dulled! I even sent one back for them to sharpen it once, and they told me as much. So--it makes sense to carry one as an unused knife for any situation where it absolutely has to cut, and not dull it doing everyday chores.
_____
A bit of history that doesn't mean anything at this point.
Probably about 1979-1980, I was visiting a rather talented knifemaker who made both fixed blade knives and liner-lock folders.
He commented that the liner locks were not safe to carry because they could slip open accidentally. Thinking about it, I suggested that he install one of the spring-loaded ball detents inside and put a dimple into the tang of the blade to keep it in the closed position, the spring allowing the ball to be depressed and rolled out of the detent as opening pressure on the blade pulled it out of the handle.
When I returned home, I went into the library of the technology company where I worked and got vendor information on ball detents and sent it to the maker.
Within about a month he called me and said he had made the first such knife, and did I want to buy it. I did. Nice little folder with titanium frame and bolsters, Stellite blade. He had installed the detent into one bolster, with a screw to adjust the pressure on the ball.
I don't know if he made any more like this, and shortly afterward the Michael Walker version came out with the detent ball mounted into the liner lock as came to be the standard approach. There is a good review of Walker at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Walker_(knifemaker)
______________
By the way, the IKBS ball bearings that I have seen are a series of 1/16-inch uncaged steel balls, and run in races milled around the pivot holes in the handles of the knives. While they are apparently heavily greased, I don't know what grease might be used by whichever maker. I also don't know what this arrangement does insofar as mechanical strength for the assembly and for the durability of the knives.
Larry
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RKCC #CM-041
ABKA #046
RKS #1246

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#171861 - 06/14/18 05:03 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Lofty Offline
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Posts: 656
Larry, again, ball bearings are HARD, and will wear grooves in whatever they run, or worse. No getting away from that.

As for Spydercos, it really depends on the steels. A lot of the modern super duper steels (of which Spyderco and their buyers now sadly fixate) are causing problems both at factory and with user, whether too hard from sharpening heat and chipping, or impossible to sharpen to a fine polish without highspeed machinery. The simpler steels such as AUS8A were easy to get as sharp or sharper, same with H1. Fine grained steels take razor edges. Serrations are another matter, those go to the factory, period. And I avoid serrations in any but H1 steel, today, for same edging reasons, as well as increased fragility of blade and scalloped edges with super duper steel.

A quote from the Hinderer general information page....
"**A side note for those of you who can’t flip your knife open to your liking, this is not a warranty or service issue. There are plenty of threads on the subject in our online forums at bladeforums.com  and usualsuspects.net  as well as youtube videos that can help you. Oil, pivot adjustments, and technique is where you will find your answers….The same goes for blade centering, lots of threads and info on the forums to help you out."

And yes, sometimes centering is off, and surely will be after putzing. That, also is adjustable, via a tightening sequence while pushing blade desired direction,.... with handle fasteners loosened, and pivot snug/bottomed-out as can be with blade half-open, close knife, push blade desired direction while tightening others screws back to front. Then readjust pivot tension and see where you are. This also is an acquired knack.

Again, some folk want that detent to stick until finger turns red and then pop loose and fire the blade open. Other folk like me want to easily boost it open and finish with a wrist flick. I can hold my favorite set knife by back and shake open with a good shake or two, that light a detent pressure. TOTALLY different set-ups and folk whining on various forums are annoying, refusing to admit THEIR set-up may not be perfection personified.

But, again, before messing with detent pressure/drag on blade, first grease that detent ball area on inside of lock bar, and get pivot clamping set to liking (CHECKED WITH LOCKBAR PUSHED AWAY FROM CONTACT WITH BLADE WHILE SWIVELING BLADE....forgot to mention that detail), and THEN adjust lockbar detent effort and side drag via tweaking.

And to think we might owe detent liner locks to you!!! The Larry Lock!!! Heck, that sounds SSSOOOooooo much better than the Walker Liner Lock....The Larry Lock....I love it.

PS- Hinderer tools....firstly, the Hinderer-made tool (when they do a run of them, as with everything they make) is perfect for working on the pivot for spanner and slot, or messing with XM-18 3.5" and XM-24 4" handle screws. Those handle screws are 5/64ths hex drive. Stabilizer screw is 0.050 hex drive. Pocket clip and filler tab are true #1 Phllips.

PPS- Larry, I must admit my XM-24s are my favorite folders of all time. Such a strong largish knife, in such a compact folded package. I always come back to one. Yes, large for a folder, but yes, small for a 3/16ths" thick 4" knife, period, when folded. The Spanto is nigh unbreakable, the Spearpoint very tough and better cutter. I generally opt for the Spanto as it cuts well enough to do the job for me, and just too cool to finally have a folder that there is no back of mind fear of it being weaker than a fixed blade. The XM-18 3.5" is a tough knife, but not even quite as large as an Endura Spyderco, and not a lot easier to carry IWB than the XM-24 as for bulk, even if lighter. And easy to see why some military and emergency responder types loved the XM-18, but likely said, "yeah, but can you make a bigger one with even tougher blade and handle large enough for big guys with gloves? You see, we have a tendency to use our folders like fixed blades, and bust them all the time....". The XM-24 is the answer to such a mindset, even if words not precise transcript.


Edited by Lofty (06/15/18 10:51 AM)
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#171867 - 06/14/18 07:43 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Lofty--

I will be offline for the next week plus, but just for the heck of it I will dig out the Mike Franklin folder and post some photos when I get back.

I will also have time then to digest all the info in your most recent post...before deciding which Hinderer to buy!

Larry
_________________________
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RKCC #CM-041
ABKA #046
RKS #1246

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#171909 - 06/15/18 12:10 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
Well, I look forward to seeing photos of another knife when you return, and feel free to wait until a full lefty lock is made to your liking on a knife of that expense, if you please.

However, as mentioned prior, these scale kits are available (for now, remember they simply do batches in that small outfit, whether knife or parts) for the XM-18 3.5"/only, to get that "almost a lefty knife" action going.
https://www.dlttrading.com/searchresults.html?Search=&search_query=hinderer+4-way+scale+kit

If you want to play Capitano Customize on a knife, the 3.5" has the most goodies made, but the 4" does have alternate scale colors and hardware available, again, in batches/runs.

While thinking about it, as for hardware/tools etc, cannot cover everything, but...
XM-18 3", 3.5", FATTY 3.5", and XM-24 all use different thickness spacers between sides.

XM-18 3" is mostly all unique parts aside from clip/filler/and maybe stabilizer/screw.

XM-18 3.5", FATTY 3.5" and XM-24 share pivot and scale screws, plus clip and stabilizer.

And before trusting my recollection on those or the below pivot screw, do some checking.

Due to thicker XM-24 4" using same pivot screw as the XM-18 3.5", the smaller knife has more pivot screw protrusion in pivot, and will for near certain require a spanner of some sort. On the XM-24, you MIGHT get by with a very thick and straight sided standard slotted bit on both sides, rather than spanner needed on one side...might. I still recommend the cool Hinderer tool. It lacks torque (sadly missed when first messing with their thread locker which stays SNUG nearly entire length of screw through several R&R cycles), but it fits everything perfectly, and I mean perfectly and scratch free if held into recesses.

And he has made quite a few models, the newest a production version of his handmade Firetac, but also the Eklipse, etc, not as beefy as the good old XM series.


Edited by Lofty (06/15/18 11:14 PM)
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#171981 - 06/16/18 01:49 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
As for the steels, it is noticed correctly,
some are very difficult to sharpen if at hand there
is no set of 2-5 quality stones.

Very good sharpening is given by diamonds on almost
all steels, but with those that are very hard (REX121),
there may be problems - microdamages of cutting edge,
if the abrasive is too coarse..

At A.G. Russell I like the steel 9Cr13CoMoV and 8Cr13MoV,
they work well enough and stable.
I noticed that they made a very large folding knife and
think it's a bit too big. I should order it and try it
as a folding kitchen knife for hikes
https://agrussell.com/knife/A-G-Russell-5-1-2-Framelock-Flipper--AGYH-FRKY9
for everyday use it is a bit too big for me,
although there may be people with big hands
for whom it will be small, as a knife for a friend
Bob Loveless www.boblovelessknives.com/for_sale_Lawndale_BigDropHunter.html


But again everything depends on the specific manufacturer,
more precisely from the specific quality of hardening.
Many large firms - Spyderko, Benchmade and others
from time to time had setbacks with new steels.
I remember "military" with S30V, which was very fragile
during the grinding, these were the first shipment.
Then, after all, this problem was fixed

p.s.
add little about Michael Walker Lock
www.knife-expert.com/liners.txt
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#171982 - 06/16/18 02:07 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
As for ARG marked knives, I bought one of their Harry Archer inspired chute knives, as there is a familial connection. A Taiwan knife. Clip grind was horrible and wandering. It was returned. The replacement was just as bad. Already out $24 in shipping, I took the refund. Sadly, same bad clip job on the USA made Sandbox Bowie, but I kept the replacement for the DM1 steel....all fixed blades and off topic, but, germane to any AGR marked product.

As to the folder linked, am quite struck by how small diameter the screws holding the entire thing together. The screws and spacers are all which adds rigidity to a box open on top and bottom, or a weak keel of a canoe or frame to a convertible-topped automobile, whatever metaphor preferred.


Edited by Lofty (06/16/18 02:08 PM)
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#172005 - 06/16/18 04:40 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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So I was very lucky...
I had 3 pcs from AGR - one hunter



and 2 slipjoints something like Carl Schlieper Solingen
model Sodbuster, but China or Taiwan (I do not remember exactly).

The screws really seem outwardly weak,
but it will only show in the exploitation,
unfortunately, since my Chinook II also does
not seem to have the biggest screws,
but it is very durable


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#172016 - 06/16/18 06:00 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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Hey, if it holds up, it holds up, and no argument here. I simply distrust folders for strength, even with closed back, as one side is open, inviting flexing.

Any flexing can deform locking surfaces through too much engagement pressure, and then also partially or fully unlock a knife twisted the opposite direction. Batoning far worse as lock not held in engagement by hand pressure.

Open back knives flex even more, period. And liners or frame locks twist right along with rest of frame.

So, I buy the stiffest, strongest built which I can find, with thick scales, larger screws, flared spacers for maximum contact both sides.

And yet, still they flex. Pry with a frame lock and watch the lock bar seat deeper or shallower, and perhaps get stuck, with prying loose with a screwdriver rather than re-flexing the knife to free the lockbar instantly adding years of wear.

Paranoid, perhaps, but I still have all my fingers.


Edited by Lofty (06/16/18 06:02 PM)
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#172098 - 06/18/18 12:41 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Lofty]
Peter_Kaufman Offline
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Registered: 02/14/08
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Loc: Southeast Utah
Here is my Spartan Harsey folder, it seems tough but I haven't used it, the spacers are wider where they contact the scales which is good. This has been very interesting to me

Peter


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#172886 - 07/09/18 11:59 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Peter_Kaufman]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Update on the Mike Franklin folder.

Going back through my records, I see that the actual period when Mike made this knife was 1988, not in 1980-1981 as memory had it.

Also, doing a bit of research online, Bernard Levine reported in 1997 that Michael Walker used a détente on his liner lock in 1984 (see: http://www.knife-expert.com/liners.txt ). Reaching out to Walker via his website I sent a message asking when he first used a détente on his liner lock but have not received a reply.

Looking further, I find a patent that included the ball détente was issued to Michael Walker with Buck Knives as the assignee in 1989. See: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4896424.

So…I am left to wonder a couple of things.

To wit, just when Walker actually came up with the détente as a feature on his liner lock mechanism? If it was before my conversation with Mike Franklin in about 1988, why was Walker’s design not patented until 1989. Perhaps he filed much earlier, but it took some years for the patent to be issued.

And…if Walker’s solution was before Mike made the knife I own…did Mike not already know (in 1988) that Walker had found a way to keep the blade with the liner lock mechanism from slipping open accidentally? Or did Walker not make known his design with the détente pending the issuance of his patent?

I don’t anticipate that this will be resolved unless Walker were to come forward and give a sure date or time period for first using the détente, and whether his détente feature was generally known before the patent was issued.

In any event, for whatever interest, here are photos of the 1988 Mike Franklin knife with the ball détente retention mounted through the front bolster of the knife. The slotted screw just behind the pivot is the one that adjusts tension on the ball détente.



Attachments
------MF5_1.JPG

------MF5_2.JPG




Edited by LarryWW1246 (07/09/18 12:01 PM)
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#173769 - 08/14/18 10:58 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
Larry, this is very useful information for thinking, thank you!

Strange, for several months now I do not see Lofty,
anyone know where he is???

I received the package today, she rode for a very long time.
Now all the parts together! Here are some good knives.
As I promised, I will make a complex comparison with some hard tests.
Preparation will take some time, hope this will be useful for someone.

Hinderer gave me Lofty, absolutely new, thank you!
Strider SnG and Emerson Commander Mini I bought on ebay,
they are worn outwardly, but the mechanical part
is in perfect order.


upd.

On Strider was made a regrind to slightly tweak the geometry of the blade,
which was altered via previous sharpening




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#174063 - 08/30/18 01:32 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
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An interesting moment that is not listed on the site of Hinderer (in any case, I did not find it, but I see it with my own eyes and in many forums this is indicated) - working part of the lock plate (If the steel plate is not installed, as on the model Firetac) covered with something very durable, most of the opinions that it is tungsten carbide. This explains the fact that the stop plate at Strider wears off and Hinderer not wears off and the damage is obtained by the blade shank. The photograph shows a stain on the stopper plate in a more opaque color


Attachments
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#176108 - 11/19/18 02:30 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
I found another interesting video, good knife



But with my Spyderco Slysz I would be more careful,
it is much thinner and can break where the hole


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_________________________
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#179278 - 03/30/19 03:06 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
There is! Now we can continue the full test.

I had to sell the previous XM24 because of some family circumstances + S35VN steel was prone to multiple microchips - when you cut contaminated materials where there are particles of sand or other stone dust, chips are formed that need to be ground for a long time + this steel is not very good with rough abrasives. With a quick rough grinding, teeth form on the cutting edge, these teeth cut aggressively, but because of the brittleness of the steel, it quickly breaks off and the knife must be sharpened again. Here we see an older version. There are no inscriptions on the blade, so I had to write to Hinderer and he indicated S30V steel.

Now I see at many Hinderer dealers that they sell more versions with M390 / 20CV. It is good, it is more durable smile


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_________________________
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#179280 - 03/30/19 08:54 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Desert Snake--

I have carried a beater Benchmade Griptillian for years. It has 154CM steel, and won't hold an edge worth sharpening.

Looking at their customer service, they will replace the blade for a fee.

The newer steels that they offer for this knife include S30V and 20CV.

The chart in their catalogue shows 20CV as having superior edge holding and corrosion resistance, but not being as tough or strong as the S30V. However, since I am more concerned about edge retention I think I will get a new blade using the 20CV.

However, I wonder if you have seen ANY chipping of the 20CV edge?

Larry
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RKCC #CM-041
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#179283 - 03/30/19 09:52 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
W Polidori Offline
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Registered: 02/09/16
Posts: 5791
Loc: Central New York
Larry,

There's some good information in this article about different knife steels; easy of sharpening, edge retention, and Rockwell hardness.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sharpening_S30V.html
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#179284 - 03/30/19 10:14 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
coachblalock Online
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 1413
Loc: Lake Fork, East Texas
Hey guys: I watched that video a while back and it got my attention!

What do y’all know about ELMAX steel?

I had a guy out to repair my water well last week. He had a “flipper” that he used to cut electrical tape, pvc pipe, and #8 well wire. He put the wire on a piece of plywood and used a hammer on the back of the blade.

I looked at his knife and there was no logo whatsoever except “ELMAX” on the blade.

He said that he bought it from a guy that no longer works there a couple years ago and uses it every day.

Anyhow, I had heard of ELMAX but never seen any. I was impressed with his knife. I wish that I had videoed it or at least taken a pic or 2.
_________________________
"Filet that fish? Hell naw! I'll scale him, gut him, fry him up in grease, take him by the head and tail, and play him like a French Harp!" - Uncle Paul sometime in the 60s.

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#179286 - 03/30/19 10:24 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
Originally Posted By: LarryWW1246

I have carried a beater Benchmade Griptillian for years. It has 154CM steel, and won't hold an edge worth sharpening.

Looking at their customer service, they will replace the blade for a fee.

The newer steels that they offer for this knife include S30V and 20CV.

The chart in their catalogue shows 20CV as having superior edge holding and corrosion resistance, but not being as tough or strong as the S30V. However, since I am more concerned about edge retention I think I will get a new blade using the 20CV.

However, I wonder if you have seen ANY chipping of the 20CV edge?

Larry


Hi Larry,

It all depends on the specific manufacturer and its preferences in heat treatment for a particular application (knife model).

I made a mistake, it was necessary to more precisely indicate that it was on the knives that Hinderer S35VN was prone to chipping and also to add - at small angles of sharpening (20-25 grad and less). If take, for example S35VN in the treatment of Chris Reeve, she does not give chips, she is plastic enough.

As for the Benchmade, I can not say something about these steels in their performance, because I did not have them and my friends also.

I did not see chips with steel 20СV on knives Hinderer, GrayMan and Linder (Linder use M390, but it's the same thing). But I saw chips on the knives of one local manufacturer, he did 64-65 units of rockwell, then he began to harden 60-62 units and there were no more chips.

Warren - great info, thank you! smile
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#179292 - 03/30/19 12:58 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: W Polidori]
LarryWW1246 Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Warren--

Thanks for the link. Excellent information.

The article equates Elmax with D2 steel, and shows the same Ease of Sharpening and Edge Retention for them.

Desert Snake--

Thank you for clarifying for me. I "think" I am torn between S30V and S20V for the replacement Benchmade blade.... But will probably go with S20V since it holds an edge better (according to Benchmade).

Page 92 of the 2019 Benchmade catalogue at https://www.benchmade.com/media/forms/2018_Benchmade_Catalog.pdf provides graphics comparing the qualities of the steels they use. If you want to do the "hammer through wire and other hard stuff" there are other steels that should excel at that but which won't hold an edge very well--thinking about CPM3V here because it outranks all the others in Strength and Toughness.

Incidentally, the qualities of D2 do not impress me...at least based on the graph from Benchmade and the information in the article on sharpening.

Larry
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RKCC #CM-041
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#179293 - 03/30/19 02:03 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
W Polidori Offline
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Registered: 02/09/16
Posts: 5791
Loc: Central New York
Larry,

Bob Dozier used alot of D2 on many of his knives. I recall some folks saying it was more difficult to bring back once dull. I think the powdered metal steels have become very popular especially on folders.
Incidentally Microtech used Elmax on my OTF.


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Edited by W Polidori (03/30/19 02:10 PM)
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#179303 - 03/31/19 12:54 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: W Polidori]
Duke Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Southwest Virginia
Personal experience comment with Benchmade re: customer service. I've owned, bought, sold so many over past 20-30 years; have sent back to the shop over couple dozen and they've repaired, stripped down, replaced every screw, several blades. So far haven't charged me anything and have returned checks at least four times and always called to discuss work before completing. Only my own experience, BUT can't beat it.
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#179306 - 03/31/19 01:40 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: W Polidori]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
Larry

Good luck to you! I had 2 knives from Benchmade, both 154CM, they never had chips, I hope that the 20CV you want to choose will be strong enough and keep the edge a lot longer.
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#179307 - 03/31/19 03:35 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
pappy19 Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 6683
Loc: Garden Valley, Idaho
I carried a Spiderco designed early Benchmade in ATS-34 and it was the second best to my Chris Reeve large Sebenza. But still one of my favorites.

Pap
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#179328 - 04/01/19 09:05 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
LarryWW1246 Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1361
Desert Snake--

This knife comes nowhere near being the Big Tough Folder that you and Lofty wrote so much about. It is just a day-to-day odd job cutter.

It is just not designed to pry, twist, or baton through whatever might have to be cut, so I don't use it like that. I would prefer to have an exposed-tang fixed blade for rough use (but if I had to destroy a folding blade to get something done that had to be done, that would be OK).

If the 20CV blade chips under my normal use, which does not amount to abuse, then I will definitely send it back to them.

I just got tired of sharpening the 154 one day, and having to do the same just a few days later after only cutting incidental things with it.

Larry
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RKCC #CM-041
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#179342 - 04/01/19 05:17 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: LarryWW1246]
Duke Offline
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Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1855
Loc: Southwest Virginia
Everybody's got something they like/hate for any number reasons....BUT, Pappy's right in my experience only, with 3 much carried folders, re: ATS-34. Retains as fine an edge as you want pretty well, but the ease of resharpening is outstanding.
Just my 2 cents.
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#179495 - 04/07/19 04:43 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Duke]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
20CV, if tempering is suitable, it will work fine for everyday use. I have a small knife with very similar in composition steel, it copes well, without chips and long cuts.
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#180074 - 05/04/19 10:53 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
I'm testing it now, blade length is all the same (+/- 1/8 inch), the shape of the cutting edge is also the same.




Attachments
------IMG_1039.JPG


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#180100 - 05/05/19 09:21 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
coachblalock Online
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 1413
Loc: Lake Fork, East Texas
Keep us posted on this test. Or at least me. I’m interested!
_________________________
"Filet that fish? Hell naw! I'll scale him, gut him, fry him up in grease, take him by the head and tail, and play him like a French Harp!" - Uncle Paul sometime in the 60s.

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#180353 - 05/19/19 02:54 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: coachblalock]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
Originally Posted By: coachblalock
Keep us posted on this test. Or at least me. I’m interested!


Sure to!

Photos will not be, I now spend all these tests at night in the park, so as not to scare people during the day))

So let's start with the convenience, it is very individual, for me personally, the most convenient handle is at the CQC13, he has a hook behind him, like with sabers and swords, that is, it will not slip out of your hand anywhere, even if it is very slippery and stained.

Cutting food - all is very good.

Cutting wood - Emerson cuts the best, he has the narrowest thickness spine of the blade and straight bevels as on most tools for working with wood (Scandinavian knives), cuts very well. But none of them will defeat the little saw of victorinox or real ax.

Cutting rubber viscous materials - here no one can defeat a spyderco military or another knife with straight bevels from spine. Of these four, the easiest way is to use Emerson again.

Cutting fibrous materials - winner serrations blade, but you curse everything when it becomes blunt and it will be necessary to urgently make it sharp.

Retention of sharpness - first place Hinderer, I suspect that here is CPM 20CV or M390, he barely blunts; second place 440V (CPM S60V now); 3 place Chinook II with S30V, Emerson with 154CM last, but only of these four, in fact, this is one of the best heat processing options 154cm, it's head and shoulders above standard swiss knife.

Easy sharpening - naturally it's the other way around than in the point about preserving sharpness, but s60v sharpen easy, also s30v. I did not specifically use rare and expensive natural stones (japan water stones and arkansas/washita), only 3 simple stones - old double craftsman and norton fine india to clean wire edge after fine side of craftsman (craftsman like here photo, carborundum). Interesting observation - wire edge blade is the least formed on the Hinderer, the feeling that it is once formed, very quickly disappears on its own, i.e. falls off.

Structural strength - here is the first place Hinderer, the second chinook 1, 3 - chinook 2 (here inside the steel liners there are cutouts for lightening the mass, but it reduces the strength), 4 - cqc 13.

Lock - most easy to use Hinderer. Strongest in my opinion is still a back lock (or midlock? indifferently) on Spyderco. Emerson lock is the weakest point. On CQC13 castlelock is just raw titanium, it wears out very quickly from opening and closing and over time a small blade game appears + because of the radial sampling on the blade shank under load when picking liner goes along the shank, very close to the exit, I could not close it with blows, but there is no certainty, it's like walking on a very long suspension bridge that sways in the wind, but these are my personal troubles in head, for most people it will work fine.

Another observation - on the spider there is a free move of the rocker arm of lock, that is, when you cut, the blade rests against the lever and the lever with the blade rises a little, this is normal and does not affect the reliability. The most secure lock still Tri-Ad Lock on Cold Steel, new Spyderco Power Lock also good, but so far little test data.

As usual, there is no better, choose the one that you like and best suits for this task.

PS

for most household and building tasks it, or his brother is still the best


Attachments
------crft.jpg


_________________________
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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#180370 - 05/20/19 09:53 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
coachblalock Online
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 1413
Loc: Lake Fork, East Texas
Thanks Snake.

I am very sleep deprived at the moment because of the storms but I intend to study this very thoroughly tomorrow.

Thanks again for taking time to type this up,

Coach
_________________________
"Filet that fish? Hell naw! I'll scale him, gut him, fry him up in grease, take him by the head and tail, and play him like a French Harp!" - Uncle Paul sometime in the 60s.

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#180449 - 05/23/19 05:51 PM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: coachblalock]
coachblalock Online
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 1413
Loc: Lake Fork, East Texas
As promised, I read through this.

Very good stuff!

Thank you for taking time to post it.

Wonder how N690 Bohler steel fits in there ?
_________________________
"Filet that fish? Hell naw! I'll scale him, gut him, fry him up in grease, take him by the head and tail, and play him like a French Harp!" - Uncle Paul sometime in the 60s.

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#180458 - 05/24/19 05:42 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: coachblalock]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1072
Loc: the other side of the earth
N690 Bohler great steel, very close in properties to 154cm, the main thing is proper hardening.
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#180465 - 05/24/19 10:38 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: desert.snake]
coachblalock Online
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/16
Posts: 1413
Loc: Lake Fork, East Texas
That is about what I thought.
_________________________
"Filet that fish? Hell naw! I'll scale him, gut him, fry him up in grease, take him by the head and tail, and play him like a French Harp!" - Uncle Paul sometime in the 60s.

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#190605 - 11/02/20 11:24 AM Re: The Big Tough Folder... [Re: Eric]
Erik Edwards Offline
Just dropped in

Registered: 11/02/20
Posts: 1
I have #6 and would love to put #1 with it any thoughts on selling?

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