OK Joe, really?




Tell me Joe, what's shocking to you? Do you know me? Ever met me? Estimated my intelligence level? Hmmm?

I picked up on the edge beveling Joe, because Ron mentioned it in the Heiser v Johnson thread that I read, and there was only a cursory response about it. I thought hmmm, let me look into that. Not rocket science Joe.

As to me sounding like Ron, that may be because I am, like he is, a pretty smart feller. Able to think for myself.

Now to your long drawn out EVASIVE post above.

I asked you for provenance, you gave me referenced threads. Provenance Joe, provenance.

Die cuts
Belt loop shapes
Overall stitching. PROVENANCE PLEASE!
Butterfly shape

Those are all observations Joe....not provenance.
Sorry, try again. I will not accept your opinion as provenance.

I provided you with provenance, you gave me opinion.

I question, frankly, your overall opinion on these early RMK sheaths. Specifically, here is why.

1) You stated in your footnotes 3 that:



Anyone who would rather keep it nice and simple, and lump them all together as Johnson made, knowing that many are Heiser/HKL, as evidenced by your statements, illustrates to me that you are confused by the whole mess.

You openly contradict yourself.

As I suspected, when I gave you examples backed with commonly known sheaths with Heiser/RMK provenance, I knew full well that you would respond with in essence, "trust me, I just know that these West facing, serif numbered sheaths I have shown you are Johnson made."

YOU HAVE NO PROVENANCE Joe, to back up those years of claims. Only years of handling them. Man, you have been doing this so many years, think back to those early days when you started giving info about these early RMK sheaths. Did you EVER provide actual provenance for it? Or just an educated guess?

Again, handling sheaths obviously doesn't mean much to you, Mr Mathews has handled a few, has he not? Oh but he is mistaken?

No Joe, you are.

Much like Ron, I am through with this discussion with you. Unless you have provenance for any of it.

Good day Sir.

Ok, I may be slow, but what I'm reading is:

Sam's posts, pictures and research = provenance...

Joe's posts, pictures and research = just words...

Have I got that right Sam?...

Hmmmmm......

---DW---

Hey Scott,

The provenance has nothing to do with me.

The manufactured traits like RMK stamp, serif number stamps, no front edge beveling has documented provenance as shown by Gary Clintons examples. It illustrates, with proof that the sheath was made in 1960. Way before Maurice Johnson.

Joe puts pictures of sheaths with those same manufactured characteristics out there, states that they are Johnson made. OK, fine. Where is the proof that they were made by Johnson? Just because he says so? Just observations? Hunches? Wouldn't hold up in court Scott.

Am I lacking in communication skills, or are there some in this forum that don't understand the meaning of the word provenance?

That is ALL I am asking, and I just get pictures saying its so. Talk about twilight zone!

He already states that many were made by HKL.

The East facing, and west/horizontal facing stamped sheaths for the most part are very different. Thus different sheath maker.

Thanks Scott

What is shocking is with each time you post you clearly reveal your intelligence quotient much to the chagrin of all reading and continue adding to the misery of the members. Don't need to meet and with any luck at all, I never will.




Pat yourself on the back, no one else will.



I gave you threads for review because your reading comprehension sucks. Your cognitive skills suck. Your interaction skills with others suck.



No, they are not “observations’, they are traits much more so than stamp orientations and serif numbers as of course I have stated previously but you don’t absorb shit. You can’t change the die cut, it is what it is. Problem is YOU DON’T HAVE A CLUE TO WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT. ZIP. NADA. ZILCH.

You don't even know what provenance is. What provenance have you ever provided for anything? Anywhere? You can't even discern one die cut, one sewing machine, one maker from another. You only bloviate.

You don't see the difference in any sheaths of any photos posted beyond your serif stamps and now "edge bevel". Which by the way you were reviewing I guess yesterday a post of Ron’s from 3 months ago or more, and just happened to pull that little tidbit out and mistakenly thought you had something, yet you can’t comprehend anything I have posted an hour ago?!?! Totally believable.



My only confusion lies in why I even get into a “conversation” with someone of your ilk.

To be frank, I long to go back to those days and just have fun with the knives spreading goodwill and cheer amongst collectors. *sigh* Then BANG, I am smacked back to the reality of dealing with morons.



Yaaaawwwwn



You didn’t provide shit. Like I said, you don’t even know what provenance is. All you have done is state the obvious that is and has been known. Other than that just annoy people and degrade this forum.



You weren’t there were you. Nope. I can’t keep repeating what I have said over and over to a guy that cannot grasp most anything that is said. Then only wants to argue.

Forget hands on for the moment, but the photos that are clear as day showing an HKL and Johnson BB next to each other and STILL CAN’T SEE THE DIFFERENCE. I can look at the friggin thing and tell you what it is. Just as Cap did with his #7 sheath. Apparently as Ron did with his 6 model 3 sheaths. As Gary Clinton did plucking the one Johnson out of 6 model 1 sheaths. FYI, it was R up (west) and has serif numbers.



Whooooah!! Hold on here. Ron asked me to be left out of this Sam. Integrity check here. We’ll see if he comes on again and chastises you the same way.

This is about YOU sam, let’s not forget that.

Another moronic statement. I have suggest throughout these threads that is is important to have hands on experience. i have throughout these threads suggested attending shows and examining others collections. Of course Ron has handled sheaths, probably half of what I have, and I don’t think he would argue that.

To respond, Ron has never said what he thought since he left that I know of. On his photo of the 6, count ‘em 6, model 3 sheaths, he said 5, count ‘em 5, were Johnson’s. Two of those Johnson’s have what you call “west” facing RMK stamps, serif numbers, center snap location. The variable traits that YOU say makes them HKL. Two have what you call "east" facing RMK stamp, no numbers, edge snap location. He calls them ALL Johnson's and he handled every one of them. Have you inquired about that?

Who is contradictory?

I don’t know where he stands at this point. It doesn’t matter nor do I care. I will say this though, if he says in some of those comparison photos of HKL and Johnson brown button sheaths that there is no difference, he is being intellectually dishonest.



There is a God.

Responding for Scott. Has to be addressed.





How did 1960 enter the equation? 1962 is the year that HKL sent their last shipment of sheaths. 1962 is the year GTR found MJ. 1962 is the year that the actual switch was consummated. So why is 1960 even part of this discussion?




I can't.............say it........caaan't.........saaay.........it



Friggin BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to the first, and a big no to the second. Most everyone knows what provenance is expect you.



Unfortuately, you are not asking anything. You are demanding. You are lecturing, mostly about subjects you know little about.



Yep, many were, and the difference between the two makers is pretty clear.



No, thank you for clearing that mystery up. I guess we can all sleep easier tonight.

Joe, 14 insults in 2 posts.

That little tirade MIGHT have insulted me, had I valued YOUR opinion of me.

Gentlemen, gentlemen please.....no fighting in here.....this is the War Room!

Thanks Ronnie. You have always been the peacemaker. I appreciate that.

You just couldn't leave well enough alone, Joe. Could you? I asked you nicely to leave me out of this and what do you do? You can't control yourself. You never could and you never will be able to.

Well, I'm going to give you what you asked for (Just remember that):

I think in your heart of hearts that you know what Jack and Sam have been professing are absolute truths, but since this didn't come from you first it can't be right. No one should get any historical credit unless they have more tenure and notoriety than you. Your ego absolutely won't allow it, and you can't do anything about it except come up with a bunch of subjective BS and smoke in form of "It's so because I have seen more sheaths than anyone and I say it's so!"). The end result is a big disservice to the Randall community and you should be ashamed.

By the way, I made my guesses on my six sheaths on 03/31/13:

http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110866&page=6

On 05/04/13 (Over a month later), I introduced Jack and his stamp orientation / keeper placement theory.

http://www.knifetalkforums.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110866&page=9

The difference between us, Joe: I can recognize truth through the veil of my ego. You are blinded by yours. This is just one example of how you twist the truth, but it's the one you've thrown in my face and it deserved a one timer response.

I'm now telling you leave me out of this, not asking. If you persist, I'm going to ask a moderator to attempt to control you.

Ron, I apologize to you for having referenced you in any way, in any of these threads, and giving Joe any kind of an excuse to go after you, and accuse you of mentoring me. It boggles my mind what he comes up with.

My intention was only to credit you with focusing my attention on learning more about these sheaths.

You have done for me what you have done for many in this community. Educate.

With that being said, you are spot on with your statement.

Regards