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#179837 - 04/20/19 05:19 PM Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome
mileswelze Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1199
Loc: Arizona
Looking for feedback on a sheath that came in on a consignment knife. I'm thinking the throat rivets aren't original and I don't want to misrep anything when I list the pairing.

Your thoughts?

I know the back part of the snap showing through the RMK logo is not original, that's a given!


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Miles Welze -- RKS #5063
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#179839 - 04/20/19 07:39 PM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: mileswelze]
Holzinger258 Offline
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Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 1738
Loc: The Desert Southwest
Seems like both sides of the throat of your sheath were reinforced using "return" stitching, so no real reason for the rivets to add more reinforcement. I believe the second picture shows properly riveted sheath.


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RKCC CM-066
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#179841 - 04/20/19 08:01 PM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: Holzinger258]
Ronnie Offline
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Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 2255
Loc: NW Mississippi
Yes the rivets have been added. Sheath did not come that way.
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RKS#2166

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#179842 - 04/20/19 08:03 PM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: Ronnie]
Ronnie Offline
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Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 2255
Loc: NW Mississippi
Beautiful old Mod. 1 that someone screwed the sheath probably to deceive.
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RKS#2166

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#179844 - 04/20/19 10:47 PM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: Ronnie]
pappy19 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 7367
Loc: Garden Valley, Idaho
So I'm going to throw this out again for whatever it's worth, right or wrong.
I bought my first Randall Model 1-6 in 1967. Carbon, stag, and etched Michael R. Allen. In 1970, I flew to Tampa to see my brother,and took my knife to the Randall shop. Pete and I visited for a good while regarding western hunting, and then asked me if I would like rivets on my sheath. I said sure. He went in the back a a few minutes later, I had rivets on my brown button sheath. I sold that knife and sheath to Rhett in 1993 and tried to find it, but no luck. My blade was carbon, stag and etched Michael R. Allen, if you find it, let me know.

Pap


Edited by pappy19 (04/20/19 10:54 PM)
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#179846 - 04/21/19 03:06 AM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: pappy19]
Ronnie Offline
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Registered: 02/13/11
Posts: 2255
Loc: NW Mississippi
I am aware of that happening Pap but that still doesn’t mean that the sheath came from the Johnson Shop like that. Problem is there are those out there done to deceive and without proof that Pete did it well then it’s a bogus sheath.
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RKS#2166

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#179848 - 04/21/19 07:50 AM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: Ronnie]
crutchtip Offline
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Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2840
It appears to be an HKL sheath, not a Johnson. That being said, the rivets have been there a long time it seems, and are period, so it is difficult to say 100%. It is most probably an owner modification.

The Randall shop set keeper snaps, they didn't make sheaths or add rivets I know of, and Mike's story of adding rivets is the first I have heard of. I wouldn't think the shop even had the tools to do so. In fact, I would bet money on it.

In any case, I don't think it really detracts from the package, and I wouldn't look at it as a negative.

What is odd, is the washer/nut for a knife apparently that late, or an HKL sheath with a knife that early. Depends on how you wanna look at it.
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#179849 - 04/21/19 08:26 AM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: Ronnie]
LarryWW1246 Offline
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Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1728
I am not an expert on the sheaths, but Pap’s story is interesting, and it reflects how things were sometimes done back in the day.

I remember going into the shop when Pete was behind the counter, and talking to him about a Model 4 with stag. He went into the back and came out with maybe a dozen pieces of stag and laid them on the counter. I narrowed it down to two pieces, had a hard time selecting, and then Pete and my wife preferred one of the two.

Having written up the order, Pete handed me the second piece of stag and told me to send it or bring it back for my next knife. I still have that piece of stag, never had it put on any of the knives bought since then…might dig it out.

While Pete’s friendliness and consideration were just good customer relations, it was one example of the kind of things that “might” have been done in the course of doing business.

Having Pap describe how Pete voluntarily installed rivets in his sheath AT THE SHOP AND NOT AT JOHNSON’S, if we came across HIS sheath we probably would not call it “phony.” Maybe it is “unusual” since we now have a first-hand account of Pete adding rivets to a sheath and we don’t “think” that he did this very often.

[Actually, this is interesting because it suggests that maybe Johnson did not do “all” the rivets…since Pete was set up to add them at the Randall shop. Maybe this can be clarified by DW or somebody else.]

The rivets in Miles’ sheath do look to be old…and without any other information we have no reason to think they are not as old as the sheath itself…and they appear to be professionally installed.

Maybe Pap can tell us whether the rivets in his sheath were installed to look like those on Miles’ sheath?

I think the real mystery is why was the gadget installed in the back of the belt loop? What was its purpose? It does appear to be “aftermarket” (not done by Johnson or RMK) since it is in the middle of the Randall trademark!

By the way, it is a nice knife and sheath.

Larry
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#179851 - 04/21/19 10:05 AM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: LarryWW1246]
Steel6 Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 12/16/17
Posts: 19
Loc: Groton, Connecticut
Just a guess, the receiving end of a dot snap on a cartridge belt?


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#179852 - 04/21/19 10:09 AM Re: Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome [Re: LarryWW1246]
crutchtip Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 2840
gonna address a couple of points Larry mentions.

First I want to reiterate, RMK was not and is not involved in sheath fabrication in any fashion. The only thing the shop did was set the keeper snap.

Providing a choice of stag used in knife fabrication is far removed from sheath modification. I think that Pete's "customer service" in Larry's case is a bit different than modifying something not produced in the shop.

The sheath in question is not a Johnson, it was made by a different company, prior to Maurice Johnson's relationship with the shop. Therefore, referencing Johnson as not installing the rivets is moot.

I do not believe Pete was "set up to add them (rivets)" at the shop. Not in the least bit. Again, it has repeatedly been confirmed that RMK was not and is not in the sheath fabrication or modification business. Could he have done so? According to Mike, Pete did on his sheath. I think the question is why would Pete even ask Mike if he wanted rivets? It would seem odd unless there was some conversation that Mike thought his potential use of the knife might require rivets. Regardless, why not just get him a period model "C" sheath for a model 1 from the bin and exchange sheaths? Why add throat rivets to a model "A" sheath?

It appears the female portion of a snap on the belt loop was added as a method of attachment it would seem. The fact that it probably is not original to the sheath might indicate the rivets are not original either.

The real mystery is the gap between the knife and the sheath age wise.
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