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#171437 - 05/28/18 05:23 PM Ruana knife and hatchet question
smokindoughnuts Offline
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Registered: 05/24/18
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Hi all. Received a Ruana knife with a 5" blade and a hatchet that are new from my father in law. Wondering where a good place would be to find a vale for these items?


thanks for the help

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#171439 - 05/28/18 06:45 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: smokindoughnuts]
Lofty Offline
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Photographs would help. New or old makes a big difference. And value is what people pay, so best bet is to surf net for same blades of same vintage and condition, and see what folk are paying. Ones made while Rudy still helping, even if not at forge, are worth the premium, and feature the earlier stamp,

To help in search, top stamp is Rudy era, bottom stamp is post-Rudy era. Newer knives have defined grinds.

Of course, the easy way might be ask father in law.



if new-new, the Ruana Knives site lists new prices, if site finished updating.


Edited by Lofty (05/28/18 06:59 PM)
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#171445 - 05/28/18 07:43 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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The R.H.Ruana with an M stamp are worth at least 40-50% more than the newer single Ruana stamp. There were 2 years at the end of Rudy's participation where the stamp was R.H. Ruana, but no M stamp. Those are somewhere in between, although less of them were made vs so many years with the M stamp, they could be a deal today.

Pap
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#171446 - 05/28/18 08:00 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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yeah, and then those before the M stamp, too, but, as you noted, near 99% odds he has one of the two, and his post reads as if new-new anyhow, and just wanting easily found MSRP.
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#171449 - 05/29/18 12:13 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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Yes, the single Ruana stamp are worth the current Ruana catalog price or a little less. Still a great knife, no questions there, but not the sentimental desirable R.H.Ruana, with Rudy at the helm.

Pap
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#171453 - 05/29/18 08:44 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Michael_Mason Offline
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Pappy,

What did the M signify in the stamp?

Thank-You....
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#171456 - 05/29/18 09:42 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Michael_Mason]
Lofty Offline
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Rudy started by making knives from Studebaker springs (and before then, he was a blacksmith for the Cav, and whatever was handy), pretty sure he gave saw blades a whirl, Studebaker spring stock dried up, and he went with 1095HC, not sure if the Sharon stuff, late 1950s/earliest 1960s, and the M marked the change to that last steel, as far as I know. No idea as to significance unless to mark a different temper from other harder saw steel at the time, ie Medium. It surely would have been tougher, less easy to break/chip, and why the main course ever since. Pappy is welcome to blow me out of the water, now...
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#171457 - 05/29/18 10:17 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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For years, I thought the M stood for Montana, but it does mean medium hardnness. Lofty got it right all the way.

Pap
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#171458 - 05/29/18 10:56 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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As for the WHY of the mark, my guess has to do with breakage. Ruana was always known for, and even a motto of sorts, making a knife which would not let a guy down in the middle of nowhere, unlike most all of other designs, as there simply was nothing to shrink, rot, crack, or come loose to the design. Which led to some mighty harsh use among buyers.

I kinda guess the M stamp was in answer to such abuse, where, about inconceivable the M stamped stuff could bust under any sane use. Where L6 saw steel might hold a great edge but might chip on bone. Just a guess, mind you, but L6 blades might have been far easier to get replaced than the M stamped blades, where Rudy might have rightly said you were breaking an M stamp blade nearly on purpose.

All conjecture, unproven, unverified, which means it now will be repeated as fact over the entire internet for the next 20yrs, even showing up in a Ford antique tractor blog.


Edited by Lofty (05/29/18 08:35 PM)
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#171462 - 05/29/18 09:16 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lofty
As for the WHY of the mark, my guess has to do with breakage. Ruana was always known for, and even a motto of sorts, making a knife which would not let a guy down in the middle of nowhere, unlike most all of other designs, as there simply was nothing to shrink, rot, crack, or come loose to the design. Which led to some mighty harsh use among buyers.

I kinda guess the M stamp was in answer to such abuse, where, about inconceivable the M stamped stuff could bust under any sane use. Where L6 saw steel might hold a great edge but might chip on bone. Just a guess, mind you, but L6 blades might have been far easier to get replaced than the M stamped blades, where Rudy might have rightly said you were breaking an M stamp blade nearly on purpose.

All conjecture, unproven, unverified, which means it now will be repeated as fact over the entire internet for the next 20yrs, even showing up in a Ford antique tractor blog.


LOL not even close. Nice stories however. Google for fact checking.
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#171464 - 05/29/18 09:51 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
Lofty Offline
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I know, but it sounds so good...
besides, back when that happened, the M was added to differentiate, and nearly predates the current boy's dad coming on board. As such, google fact checking is also going to be 2nd/3rd hand "facts", at best. Why start doing it at all, before it morphed into tradition, was to differentiate...my story, anyhow...and as to the why as well, or, am in the ballpark, anyhow...I like stories.


Edited by Lofty (05/30/18 12:41 PM)
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#171465 - 05/29/18 09:54 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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Have absolutely no idea what you just said. But I guess you liked it.
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#171466 - 05/29/18 10:08 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
W Polidori Offline
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Let me be a bit a bit more clear on my previous post.
You almost always post messages in babble.I hate trying to figure out what the hell you are thinking when plain English would work. You might get more responses.
Some of your threads are interesting, be more clear.
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#171468 - 05/29/18 10:15 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
Lofty Offline
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Warren, thank you so much for the compliments, I seem to have a friend forever, in you. This is why this board is the most posted place on the planet, thanks to warm, caring folk, such as you. And am sure you greet everyone face to face with such kindness, not leaving it only to a souless keyboard.

The change to 1095 and M stamp happened in 1962. Vic Hangas came on board in 1964. My musing was over WHY Rudy elected the M when your average owner would not care, it being the only game in town.
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#171469 - 05/29/18 10:24 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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You could have said all that in one sentence. Let's be more clear in our future posts. I hate trying to figure out what the hell you are thinking or trying say. I don't dislike you, just can't figure out what you are saying most of the time.
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#171470 - 05/29/18 10:31 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
Lofty Offline
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Warren, to be clear, I do not CARE if you like me, and simply am curious as to why you bother reading them and then critiquing them if they disturb you so very much. I have now repeated the same information for you, and seems as if that should be enough, but still you must play language nazi. My advise is simply to avoid my posts, if so upsetting. This marks the 2nd or 3rd time you have gone after me, via keyboard.


Edited by Lofty (05/29/18 10:33 PM)
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#171471 - 05/29/18 10:38 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
W Polidori Offline
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I don't even know how to respond to this. Language within should be censored IMO, Moderators discretion.
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#171472 - 05/29/18 10:45 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
W Polidori Offline
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Mods
Would advise locking before cliffhanger. Not my idea of a good day.
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#171526 - 06/04/18 09:49 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: W Polidori]
desert.snake Offline
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All the knives that I came across and had cast aluminum handles,
he were very slippery, and during work left on the hands
of black traces of aluminum. I wonder if Ruana knives
are as slippery as that?

I think a good option would be to the handle with anodizing,
like on tactical aluminum flashlights
or microtech knives with anodizing handle,
this improves grip on hands and eliminates traces.
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#171528 - 06/04/18 10:21 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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The handles work quite well. No blisters with heavy work, stag gives traction/grip, guard and rounded/enlarged pommels keep the knife in the hand.

Rudy's designs were for serious hunters in the middle of nowhere, where failure was not an option. They were not things of beauty in his time, greatly improved aesthetics today, but in common, they plain work.

No idea as to black residue in your experience. The polished aluminum on the Ruana is squeaky clean, and only black will be from user hands.


Edited by Lofty (06/04/18 10:23 AM)
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#171530 - 06/04/18 10:35 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: desert.snake]
GCTom41 Offline
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You can also add fingergrips to many models

Tom Flynn


Attachments
------Ruana Knives-KT.JPG


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#171531 - 06/04/18 10:43 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: GCTom41]
Lofty Offline
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AND, those also are the roomiest/longest handles offered, correct?

I am asking, as I ignore any finger scallops, as majority never fit me, so am fuzzy on details regarding Ruana.
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#171532 - 06/04/18 11:06 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
GCTom41 Offline
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They only do the one size of fingergrips and will apply them to appropriate handled knives; call the shop and discuss, if interested.

Tom Flynn
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#171537 - 06/04/18 03:53 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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Regarding the M stamp; from the Ruana book, "Hear The Hammer", on page 96, "From 1938 to 1962, Ruana knives were made from Studebaker car springs. In 1962, a high carbon steel became available that was the thickness and weight needed for knife making. When Ruana changed to high carbon steel, the stamp changed from a knife to the M stamp". The M stamp was used from 1962-1983, then R.H. Ruana, but no M stamp from 1983-1984.

Pap


Edited by pappy19 (06/04/18 03:55 PM)
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#171542 - 06/04/18 04:36 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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I appreciate the dating info on those "sleepers" you mentioned. I had read elsewhere, and from quotes of who was there at the time, that Studebaker springs were getting thinner and thinner local, and saw steel also used, then the switch to some manner of 1095. But, will stick with printed book as primary.

Back to that "why" question on the M. I can see doing so if selling both types, so the end user knows which knife for what job...but, if only steel used from then on, it would only serve either the shop folk in knowing what steel was used on a knife later on, or a non-existent at the time collector market in telling them apart.

So, why would shop want to be able to tell newer from older at that time? And keep doing so for year after year. Some manner of tracking, either performance of old knives or new, is my guess, still. If local Studebaker supply held out all the way until 1962, then perhaps to see if new knives held up as long as old?

Thing is, this predates Vic Hangas, by Vic's time Rudy could have simplified any answer to a query to something as curt as, "because I changed steel," and the reasoning behind it lost in mists of time.

Am hoping those with more resources can answer.


Edited by Lofty (06/04/18 05:05 PM)
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#171543 - 06/04/18 04:53 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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Years ago I had an opportunity to stop at the Ruana Shop, after Rudy passed, and at that time I had an old knife marked 12B sticker,and asked about the Studebaker leaf springs. Apparently it was the carbon content in the steel that Rudy liked. Those springs were becoming harder to find in the Missoula area, so Rudy looked elsewhere. A "medium" temper was the thought behind the M stamp. More rare are an S stamp, for salt water temper, and a T stamp for a "razor" temper.

Pap


Edited by pappy19 (06/04/18 04:54 PM)
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#171544 - 06/04/18 05:08 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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The salt water "temper" was stainless? I knew about that S but thanks for info on the other, new to me. Still leaves me wondering why whoever would want to know whatever, aside from filling orders. But it went on and on, when only steel in town. Stamping every knife with a separate M extra operation makes no sense when only steel offered, especially right after others discontinued, as for "it's a tradition" argument.

The Studebaker springs were and are popular for forging purposes. I wonder if anyone ever ran an analysis on them, or traced to maker for alloy. And, wonder what is closest, today. My guess would be 80CrV2, aka 1085 Improved, aka 5160 Improved, some cro-moly-vanadium spring steel for heavier purposes.

PS- this all assumes a separate M stamp, every bit of it. If he had an old stamp where he added separate S and T, and also bought a new stamp circa 1962 with added M, then the plain answer is, "because it's the new stamp, and the old one about slap wore out," too simple, Private, long after differences in filling orders needed to be noted. It is what it is.

Pappy, or anyone else, who owns several M stamp blades, a comparison between them would give an answer right quick. I only have the old Smokejumper. If all the Ms are in precisely same place, as in part of one name/temper stamp, then they kept stamping M for that easy reason. It was what they had.


Edited by Lofty (06/04/18 10:55 PM)
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#171572 - 06/05/18 02:33 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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This is all very useful and interesting information, thank you Lofty and Pap!

There is a very useful modern technology - ultrasonic
hardness tester UCI (Ultrasonic Contact Impedance).
It would be nice to measure the hardness of old
and new knives in this manner. The usual mechanical method
is not applicable (indentation of a diamond cone into
a metal), since it requires an even surface, that is,
it is only possible in the area of the spine of the knife.
As far as we know, Ruana used zone hardening,
cutting edge harder than the spine.
The UCI makes it possible to measure the hardness
on curvilinear surfaces.
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#171578 - 06/05/18 10:36 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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I knew about micro testing, but not the ultasonic. It causes me to wonder though, if we are entering same as with pressure testing, copper and lead crusher units, measured physical deformation against a scale, vs piezo strain gauge electronic method of psi or metric equiv...no direct correlation.

And since ultrasonic is obviously not attempting to dimple a sample under a known pressure, and then deformation measured against a scale, it will only be approximate to original method, and truly valid only in reference to other results obtained with same technology....just as with pressure measurments...only valid when relative to results obtained the same way.

As an fyi, zone hardening is a misnomer, applicable perhaps to Japanese method and layers of clay during hardening. But, generally, here, knives are fully hardened, and then selectively softened after temper, in handmade by using a torch, and in factory setting via induction heating, to anneal tang/ricasso area, and more selectively in handmade to soften back and tip, as well.

And still hoping someone with several M stamped blades can chime in as to whether the M appears to be part of same stamp as name and all unitized, or a separate stamp. Cannot even begin to guess, based on my sample of one.


Edited by Lofty (06/05/18 10:53 PM)
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#171580 - 06/05/18 11:19 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
pappy19 Online
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My assumption is that the M stamp is separate from the RH stamp. Only from looking at the pressure of each stamp is not consistent one to the other in different models. Some look really close, while others are obviously different. Great question however.

Pap
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#171581 - 06/06/18 12:23 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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Thank you very much, Sir. Just for a moment, I thought me left wondering forever about a useless M stamp being applied again and again and again, when other dropped, might be solved. But, thanks to you, I now know it can bug me forever. But I seriously thank you for taking the time to look.
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#171585 - 06/06/18 02:30 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Quote:
I knew about micro testing, but not the ultasonic. It causes me to wonder though, if we are entering same as with pressure testing, copper and lead crusher units, measured physical deformation against a scale, vs piezo strain gauge electronic method of psi or metric equiv...no direct correlation.

And since ultrasonic is obviously not attempting to dimple a sample under a known pressure, and then deformation measured against a scale, it will only be approximate to original method, and truly valid only in reference to other results obtained with same technology....just as with pressure measurments...only valid when relative to results obtained the same way.


In fact, this is the same method with the introduction of a diamond pyramid, only with an additional overlay of a certain frequency, the frequency under load varies according to the hardness.


Quote:
The UCI method (Ultrasonic Contact Impedance or modified Vickers procedure) – first put to use in 1965 under the name “SonoDur” - electronically evaluates each Vickers hardness test indentation in a fraction of a second and displays the results digitally. As with traditional Vickers hardness testing, the material surface is exposed to the tip of an indenter with a defined geometry (= Vickers diamond) with a predetermined force.
However, unlike the traditional procedure, dynamic coupling impedance measurements are used to measure the hardness value under load. For this purpose, a mechanical resonator (vibrating rod) equipped with an indenter at its tip is excited to longitudinal vibrations of about 78kHz and forced into the test material. Through this coupling of materials, contact resistance arises beneath the Vickers diamond, thereby causing a dampening of vibration amplitude and a simultaneous increase in vibrational frequency in the characteristic manner. This frequency shift is exactly determined once a predetermined test force has been achieved and the Vickers hardness is derived immediately therefrom. The resonating frequency of the vibrating rod increases as the test force (or contact surface) has more of an impact. If the test force is constant, the deviation of the vibration frequency (= differential frequency Δf) from stand-by frequency f0 in the air is therefore an indirect measure of a material’s hardness. However, differential frequency is also dependent on the elastic property (e-module, Poisson's ratio) of the resonator, indenter and test materials. Since these parameters are generally not known, the system must be calibrated for probes of a known hardness (= normal, reference plates). It will then be easy to calculate the hardness from the differential frequency, test force and calibration data.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJq1AY1hlc

https://www.ndt.net/article/ecndt02/109/109.htm
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#171603 - 06/06/18 01:01 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
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A careful read of the above last few lines, starting with "however", suggests they agree entirely with my statement, that it is all relative, and only self referencing.

In the case of trying to use such a gizmo on an old Ruana knife, you would already need probes calibrated to the material of the blade precise material, in order to even begin to get a reading.

But, most of what that machine is hoped to provide, must be already known, before testing even began.

You would need to know Rudy's exact alloy, and engineering data on that alloy forged Rudy's way, to even start reading hardness of a blade of Rudy's. And the amount of forging in various areas will vary, and then so will the elasticity of the metal, as will also it vary due to his heat treat, and draw down of hardness on his blades in various areas.

In short, you would need all the answers before ever looking for them. It will only give a reading relative to something already known. Any reading would need be stated, "if it is this exact alloy, and forged this much, then it reads close to this metal and hardness. However, if not forged as much, or made of this metal, instead, then Rudy's blade is sort of like this other metal and hardness...but, only right in this spot, as etc etc etc etc".

My read of it, anyhow. Will leave it to the techno types messing with human DNA and creating black holes and anti-matter on Earth, while still unable to even explain or prove various knives cut better and last longer, except with a machine using calibrated sandpaper cards, and which duplicate no normally cut material, nor any normal human movement or use of knife. If they cannot explain THAT, how are they going to explain a blade by Rudy Ruana?


Edited by Lofty (06/06/18 01:02 PM)
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