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#171581 - 06/06/18 12:23 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: pappy19]
Lofty Offline
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Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
Thank you very much, Sir. Just for a moment, I thought me left wondering forever about a useless M stamp being applied again and again and again, when other dropped, might be solved. But, thanks to you, I now know it can bug me forever. But I seriously thank you for taking the time to look.
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#171585 - 06/06/18 02:30 AM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: Lofty]
desert.snake Offline
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Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 1111
Loc: the other side of the earth
Quote:
I knew about micro testing, but not the ultasonic. It causes me to wonder though, if we are entering same as with pressure testing, copper and lead crusher units, measured physical deformation against a scale, vs piezo strain gauge electronic method of psi or metric equiv...no direct correlation.

And since ultrasonic is obviously not attempting to dimple a sample under a known pressure, and then deformation measured against a scale, it will only be approximate to original method, and truly valid only in reference to other results obtained with same technology....just as with pressure measurments...only valid when relative to results obtained the same way.


In fact, this is the same method with the introduction of a diamond pyramid, only with an additional overlay of a certain frequency, the frequency under load varies according to the hardness.


Quote:
The UCI method (Ultrasonic Contact Impedance or modified Vickers procedure) – first put to use in 1965 under the name “SonoDur” - electronically evaluates each Vickers hardness test indentation in a fraction of a second and displays the results digitally. As with traditional Vickers hardness testing, the material surface is exposed to the tip of an indenter with a defined geometry (= Vickers diamond) with a predetermined force.
However, unlike the traditional procedure, dynamic coupling impedance measurements are used to measure the hardness value under load. For this purpose, a mechanical resonator (vibrating rod) equipped with an indenter at its tip is excited to longitudinal vibrations of about 78kHz and forced into the test material. Through this coupling of materials, contact resistance arises beneath the Vickers diamond, thereby causing a dampening of vibration amplitude and a simultaneous increase in vibrational frequency in the characteristic manner. This frequency shift is exactly determined once a predetermined test force has been achieved and the Vickers hardness is derived immediately therefrom. The resonating frequency of the vibrating rod increases as the test force (or contact surface) has more of an impact. If the test force is constant, the deviation of the vibration frequency (= differential frequency &#916;f) from stand-by frequency f0 in the air is therefore an indirect measure of a material’s hardness. However, differential frequency is also dependent on the elastic property (e-module, Poisson's ratio) of the resonator, indenter and test materials. Since these parameters are generally not known, the system must be calibrated for probes of a known hardness (= normal, reference plates). It will then be easy to calculate the hardness from the differential frequency, test force and calibration data.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJJq1AY1hlc

https://www.ndt.net/article/ecndt02/109/109.htm
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#171603 - 06/06/18 01:01 PM Re: Ruana knife and hatchet question [Re: desert.snake]
Lofty Offline
Knife Enthusiast

Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 656
A careful read of the above last few lines, starting with "however", suggests they agree entirely with my statement, that it is all relative, and only self referencing.

In the case of trying to use such a gizmo on an old Ruana knife, you would already need probes calibrated to the material of the blade precise material, in order to even begin to get a reading.

But, most of what that machine is hoped to provide, must be already known, before testing even began.

You would need to know Rudy's exact alloy, and engineering data on that alloy forged Rudy's way, to even start reading hardness of a blade of Rudy's. And the amount of forging in various areas will vary, and then so will the elasticity of the metal, as will also it vary due to his heat treat, and draw down of hardness on his blades in various areas.

In short, you would need all the answers before ever looking for them. It will only give a reading relative to something already known. Any reading would need be stated, "if it is this exact alloy, and forged this much, then it reads close to this metal and hardness. However, if not forged as much, or made of this metal, instead, then Rudy's blade is sort of like this other metal and hardness...but, only right in this spot, as etc etc etc etc".

My read of it, anyhow. Will leave it to the techno types messing with human DNA and creating black holes and anti-matter on Earth, while still unable to even explain or prove various knives cut better and last longer, except with a machine using calibrated sandpaper cards, and which duplicate no normally cut material, nor any normal human movement or use of knife. If they cannot explain THAT, how are they going to explain a blade by Rudy Ruana?


Edited by Lofty (06/06/18 01:02 PM)
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