Pocket pistols...

Posted by: Lofty

Pocket pistols... - 01/29/18 11:06 PM

This one fits in a map pocket. 60grs 3f, .61 cal 325gr ball, over 1000fps Xs 2. The suede tootsie rolls under hammers are the safety(s). For the curious, the proof loads for the barrels are twice the loads in them. It is proofed with almost 150grs 2f and almost 2oz of shot. Barrels just over 11" and 4.5lbs. Sorry for filth, have been busy lately and a rough winter.

REPEL BOARDERS!

Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 09:13 AM

Lofty,
That looks super nice. However........you must have some really big pockets for that thing!!!

I don't even want to know what the recoil would be like with the proof loads!!!!

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 05:20 PM

The map pockets are just workable. It is 17.25" and 4.4lbs, hides under a jacket or towel with ease. Very easy to move from auto to home or motel room, fits in a lightweight backpack with room to spare and does not try to punch through bottom. Hard to imagine a handier "long" gun which one would wish to shoot.

Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 07:46 PM

What's it weigh loaded? Is it front heavy?
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 08:29 PM

Loads are 60grs twice, and 325grs twice, so, just a little under two ounces heavier than the 4.4lb weight when empty.

Balance point is just ahead of locks, so weight between hands with front and rear hold, and is fired easily and most comfortably with a two hand pistol hold, as the barrel key might get a hand out front. Can be fired one hand, but gets heavy quick.

If you google "hickok45 howdah 20" it should get you a video of him shooting a normal 60gr 2f and ounce of shot, if you wish to judge recoil better than I can describe. A really fun gun with sane 20ga loads such as printed on boxes of shells as in drams and ounces and how this easily measured.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 08:45 PM

Legality....YOUR state may or may not be fine with it. If a state essentially copies Federal law on guns, and classes antique-type non-cartridge guns as non-firearms, then it is fine. BUT, if your state does not differentiate such as "a firearm is any device capable of propelling shot or bullet by expanding gas (to maybe include air rifles), etc etc etc", then likely barrel length restrictions will also apply to the muzzleloader.

To be frank, most southern states do NOT class muzzleloaders separate, I know TN and GA DO, but AL/MS/AR/OK do NOT, or something like that...and yet still freely mailed by major chains to those states, as obviously prisons not filled with muzzleloader convicts as most law officers just see a.muzzleloader and know the feds do not care. Other states allow convicts to own muzzleloaders, such as FL, I think.

Anyhow, just because they will mail it to you, does not make it legal, so, check before purchase, or, use with discretion, for your area.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 08:52 PM

oh....to double the eye opening, it also can be furnished with a detachable separately sold stock, and even a holster, both of which I have, the holster used for covering majority of gun (muzzles and PG exposed) when packed. The stock is actually quite good, more an "entry gun" length so that stock not longer than gun when packed. Pointing is more a looking over barrels than down, but a well made wood/steel/leather padded stock.

This should be a short clip of the stocked gun being loaded and fired with ball, and shoulder stock installed...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqVfeR31Row
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/30/18 11:43 PM

As much as videos show all manner of expensive time consuming load stacks for shot loads, an arch hole punch of correct size and three cheezit box card wads over powder and once or two over the shot works fine. Google old VM Starr on muzzleloading shotguns and read his amusing take and exploits.

His wads are described more as signboard/tablet backer (and good luck finding such today), but thinner fare works fine when a couple more added....when you find some downrange not burned through, you have arrived.

Ball loads even easier, a patched ball on powder. If burned through, who cares at the ranges being used. CAN put a card wad or three if desired, though...

It can be as simple or complicated as desired.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/31/18 12:07 AM

As to why bother, when you can nearly get 325grs going nearly as fast in a Ruger .45 SA, and certainly get there with some other caliber revolvers, what you will not get on arrival or even after impact, is .61 cal.

Neither will you get, even with a pump gun, the pure menace of a shorty double. I own a Shockwave 12ga 14.5" bbl, and it weighs about a pound more, and is about 9" longer, to get the 3 extra shots. Since I carry a gun a whole lot more than shoot one in life and death scenarios in civilian life, two shots of 20 ga is just fine, and if i need more, there is always the G43 9mm somewhere on my person.

of course, also the obvious, in many/most states, the gun mailed or bought over the counter with no more paperwork than a bill of sale, and ditto many/most states zero record keeping, or it even called a firearm and may as well be an umbrella. But, again, CHECK for your area and KNOW.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/31/18 09:23 AM

Lofty,
Just so you can't get into any trouble with the law,send that piece to me and I will "hold it" for you so you won't get into any trouble.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/31/18 01:32 PM

I surely will, if you send me your address....wait.....it might get you in trouble by shipping to you, so, I will fall on the grenade for you, friend. You can thank me later.
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 01/31/18 07:33 PM

Hand cannon! I bet looking at that pointed at you would get all of your attention!
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/01/18 06:55 PM

That same thought entered my mind as i bought it...."play with it?! Heck, I'm gonna TOTE this sucker."

Muzzle is sealed by greased patch, waterproof caps snug and firmly seated with constant hammer pressure....gun and touch hole and nipple were clean and dry before charging, 3f black powder used for surest ignition, and if you are ever worried about THAT part, can always remove nipple after charging, trickle a little 4f in the touch hole, and even put a few grains in the nipple before capping.....it WILL fire.
Posted by: Byrdguy

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/02/18 08:15 AM

Tote it where?
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/02/18 09:37 AM

Lofty,
You are all heart.

How does it pattern/group on the range. Looks like recoil might be of some concern.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/02/18 10:52 AM

Tote it WHERE?....given its size, about anywhere I please. But mainly in car and on trips, easy to move without drawing attention such as a case draws, whether under a jacket/in a pack going to motel room, or whatever. Meanwhile, it goes everywhere the car goes, which is all over.

It is a CYL bore 20ga, which means a max range of circa 20yds to a 12ga 25yds, using shot. I have not owned a muzzleloading shotgun in about 10yrs, so, have not patterned this one, but expect no suprises. There are tricks to tightening patterns, and if the bores were not chromed, it could even be jug choked to get MOD, if one wanted. But 20yds is a long way out when kicking up bunnies, anyhow, so, would not bother, in any case.

It was bought mainly as a pirate pistol double barreled ball shooter, and has no problem keeping both barrels fairly centered on a target plenty good enough for close range hog or burglar, out to 20-25yds, but really needs a rear sight if one wants to "accurize".

It does admit the possibility of any barrel load combo such as buckshot in one, and ball in the other, or buck-n-ball, or even packed cornmeal rocksalt for a close range owie, but, am not gonna mess with such myself, except maybe bunnie bopping in hog turf. But, pretty much anything possible.

again, as for recoil, google "hickok45 howdah 20" and watch him shoot the thing with volumetric equiv 1oz loads...it is a fun gun to shoot, and can be loaded from mild to wild, while you are at the range...again, anything is possible with a muzzleloader. You are not restrained by a fixed ammo supply.

Guess i could tack on this admin detail in handling. Legally, a muzzleloader is unloaded when caps are removed, as for making the gun "safe" without shooting or pulling the load with a ball screw. If loaded and nipple kept sealed, it will not rust, or corrode, as unburnt powder does not have salt as does firing residue, IF the gun loaded with a clean/dry chamber and flash hole/nipple seat/nipple. I normally swab with lighter fluid to thoroughly degrease prior to a longer term load.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/02/18 11:28 AM

As for the horsepower of the thing...Anecdotally, the fellah who built my .62cal rifle kills elk every year where he lives. His guns have taken most everything in Africa, with the ball pushed to about 1900fps. And most anything most of us would hunt could be poked at 100yds with one of his rifles, with no worries.

This pistol muzzle velocity is about identical to the velocity of one of his rifles at 100yds.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/03/18 09:06 AM

Lofty,
Again,that is one interesting piece.
Originally they were called "Howdah Pistols"?????

If they were used to shoot at attacking lions/tigers while on the back of an elephant,I think that it would be plenty medicine for any other application.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/03/18 07:57 PM

That is how they are marketing these, leading to something like 15yrs of stale "say howdy to dah howdah" and "howdah make a legal sawed off shotgun" quips.

Of course, this is a modern production gun, and nowhere near the meticulous workmanship and perfection with which caplock howdah pistols were assembled by high grade gunmakers for wealthy officers and nobility able to hunt India.

But, by modern standards, pretty danged nice to still get polished blue and wood.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/04/18 09:35 AM

Lofty,
From the photos,it looks like a pretty darn good piece to me.
Glad to see that you are giving it a good workout.

Something like that should not be just tucked away in the back of the safe.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/04/18 07:56 PM

Nice thing about it being it a standard production item, uses locks/triggers from their standard production known durable gun, unlikely for anything to break, and easy to salt away spares even if something does.

Being a very simple gun, two tumblers (those are inside on hammer and have the notches), two sears, and maybe two mainsprings, and spare parts specific to the brand are pretty much done.

Workmanship about on par with working grade hardware store doubles of 50yrs ago, such as Stevens, and just no worry over using as a daily driver. I certainly had no business buying something such as this just to sit unused.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/05/18 09:52 AM

Lofty,
Sounds like you are pretty well prepared for anything. I doubt if you will need all those spares as I have not heard of many of these have problems.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/05/18 11:37 AM

Wayne, "prepared for anything"? Hardly....no more than the average guy.

I mean, EVERYbody has a CAR in their bedroom with a thermal imaging sight, right?

Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/06/18 09:16 AM

Lofty,
Very,very nice piece there. However in my state,they are BANNED.

Fifty three years ago I had one that was quickly thrust into my hands and it did not work at the worst possible time.

Pretty well soured my taste for the AR/M-4 type weapon from then on.

I turned the remnants of the M-16 back to the armory and "acquired"
(Military translation=S.T.O.L.E) a Stevens Model 77 12 ga pump with a 16" bbl. Things went much better from then on.

Yes,they have improved the platform dramatically but the stigma for me still remains.

Again,a super nice piece.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/06/18 12:03 PM

Wayne, I never had much luck with them in the service, and despised them. And this was after first loving them when I helped a friend deliver papers on a bike. So that he could pay his dad for the brand new Colt Sporter with Mattel marked stock and no fwd assist. Which would be about the same time as your wonderful experience. It was a wonder when he handed it to me in a clay pit and I zapped a rusty 5gal bucket at other end of pit and shooting standing.

Then I signed on the dotted line for a world of sex and danger, and found it to be second to many cheap Stevens rimfires in reliability. We were mostly able to use local weapons in my units, and I did, after sorting through them and finding a good one. And to this day, have preferred an SKS or AK or even a Ruger .22 auto to the Colt. And all they did was get bigger and heavier and no more reliable while i was in, first the A1 and then the A2.

And then I found this lightweight pencil barrel modern number, almost as light as the originals, 6lbs empty, 6.25lbs with 20rd mag, and it took me back to that clay pit over 50yrs ago.

Suprisingly, it worked just fine. Which, it turns out, them not doing was much due to our always dogged out weapons, where you deploy with a gun with 80,000 training rds through it, and also, accumulated carbon and battered choked gas tubes and worst, were trained to lube at minimum. The services finally have gotten around to admitting it is a gun which needs to stay well lubed. You get a new gun, run it wet, and it will go at minimum 5000rds, and often twice that, before starting to slow or choke. This is for true milspec weapons, only. Also, the shorter carbine gas system is harsher and more reliable than the longer versions under adverse conditions, so harsh, as a matter of fact, that I installed an H2 buffer to slow things down a mite in timing and battering, as the gun is not going back to the middle east or central or south america or any caribe isle, and neither am I.

But, still not my favorite gun, and it is in the bedroom for that reason, most times. It has one ability no other gun has, and that is the ability to speed change optics to match threats/environments, and try to find any other platform able to take a thermal sight. Yeah, i could add a rail to shotguns, leverguns, etc, but no thermal is going on those. My old Garand-reliable Mini 14 cannot take one at all. Plus the optics and mounts designed for instant mount and eye alignment with this gun, only. And take me out and shoot me if I ever mount such to my favorite short rifle, my 15yr old (actually now 18yr old) pre-Remlin (Remlin=CAST yuk pttoo) .45-70 18.5"bbl Guide Gun (GG/Gigi). The 300gr HPs quite violent inside 75yds.

But, for being able to see in the dark, not self-lluminate even in IR spectrum, and see even latent foot and pawprints coming and going, the CAR is the one to grab. You simply cannot beat that ability when alone and scared in the dark. Plus, it works in ANY light, with no flare at all except from an IR searchlight, so, not blinded by even super bright lights, and looks right thru them as if not even there, automotive high beams included.







add a thermal imager to THIS?!

PS- sorry you could not find, instead, an unaccountably abandoned M12 riot gun, needing a home. Much easier to transfer post to post when broken in half and in ruck, duffle, tent post and stake bag, or even laundry bag. Each half only 21" long, dry weight of under 6.5 lbs, and holds 6rds of milspec buck in the tube, and no disconnector same as your Stevens (and our Remington 31s, Ithaca 37s etc). I found it quite satisfactory, as well. Still do.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/07/18 09:55 AM

Lofty,
Yes,a Model 12 would have been nice as there were several in the armory,probably WW 1 hold overs. But they were pretty much held on to and strictly accounted for.
The Stevens Model 77 was basically a cast off in a "corrosion corner" and served its purpose very well.
When I rotated back stateside,it went back into that armory,in much better condition then when I "obtained"it.

I wish I could get a Mossberg Shockwave in this state as that would be a pretty good piece as I like the Mossberg pumps and have 2.

Funny thing,the Mossberg pistols,which are really sawed off pumps are Class 3 items and may be obtained in this state with,off course the tax stamp procedure but not the Shockwave which is not classified as Class 3. Go figure.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/07/18 11:44 AM

ha, I hate it for you there! Have lived places like that, and not worth staying, considering my lifestyle. Life is too short to spend with people who do not like you, as one retired DEA pal once told me. My first experience with the Mossberg shorty legal concept was when the guy who invented the whole idea, his Raptor grip, of Shockwave technologies, was simply selling grips. And you could either buy his grip and order up a 14" LE barrel/mag tube/forend (pretty danged expensive counting a base gun), OR simply cut about 2" off a standard Cruiser to get the just over 26" safe legal minimum. After all, that is what the inventor/discoverer of what the law actually allowed, did. He cut a Cruiser, it was agreed by ATF that he had read law correctly, and he only then came up with even cooler looking, but no shorter, birdshead grip and ordered a LE barrel set, and sent that off, as well.

Pretty soon, Mossberg wondered why all their 14" stuff was selling like hotcakes, and cut a deal with the guy...

But I was cheap back when this all started, and simply cut an old Maverick 88 Cruiser bought really cheaply at a pawn shop. At the time, I did not see much difference, as 26" was 26", and I was wrong. And not just about the Mossberg concept, but also in what makes a handy long gun in the car.

Turns out that with a Cruiser grip and shortened barrel, all the extra length is ahead of the left hand, and still has some tendency to bang the muzzle around, while the Shockwave puts excess length between right hand and elbow where it does not matter as long as it does not stick out past elbow, and a lot lot handier in front.

To tie these various short shotgun threads together along with the above CAR and Gigi divergence, into one nice neat Christmas package, as if planned all along that way, I found the same suprising fact as to relation of front hand and handiness with those two long guns, with a suprising winner.

You would think no contest between a 32"/16"bbl CAR and 37"/18"bbl Guide Gun as for handiness, and you would be as wrong as I was. As, like the cut Cruiser, the CAR makes most of shortening at the buttstock. Observe also how far back the handguard is from muzzle on a CAR, and you have a tremendous amount of rifle sticking out past left hand, whether at civ. legal 16" or military 14.5". The forend on GiGi has very little barrel and magazine sticking out past left hand, and all excess length back, again, between right hand and elbow, not causing near the banging around the longer front of the CAR causes....plus, a much more natural and instictive point with a full stock and actual cheek weld.

I am imagining the 20ga double trouble also regulated in your state? Will be honest and say that for what most folk want in a handy shotgun, the Shockwave is a lead sled pig compared to the Pedersoli, and were Shockwaves or cut Mavericks (with bead reinstalled, as I do no jackleg work) legal for you, we would be on the horn now, as the double trouble has completely displaced both, with exception of my always wanting a highest normal cap. pump shorty sans permission slip for ATF to come in and view everything I own. Truthfully, also, the Shockwave will never be fun unless you use AA Low Noise, Reduced Recoil Target Loads whereupon you may as well shoot light loads out of the Pedersoli..

As for legality, since many states do not copy fed law verbatim as for designating a starter definition of "shotgun" excluding the Shockwave or other PG such stuff, even the Shockwave might be illegal where the muzzleloader might be questionable...

BUT, in such places, I would much rather be busted thru ignorance with a capock muzzleloader than with an evil black modern slide action pump...much more likely to stay out of trouble with more classic looking fare than with any of the modern tacticool (cheap for maker) appearing guns, and no cop or judge would buy at all my whining that I had absolutely no idea my evil black 14" pump shotgun might actually be illegal somewhere, while a totally different and also true befuddlement on a muzzleloader much more likely to have serious traction. Perhaps even in your area.

PS-on the Winchester, it was likely originally an aerial gunnery practice gun, it dates from the early 1950s, and at some point the barrel was cut back to nominal 21" M12 riot gun spec, FULL marking lined out, and restamped CYL, never had any notches cut for heat shield, and simply a reissue for "guard gun" once needs changed. This one was also an Island Of Misfit Guns appropriation, the innards were a mess as for rust, but an actual cleaning found very little pitting of anything under the red tropics induced sludge, only grey stains here and there, it had been written off as unserviceable when it seen all the red oozing out after an extended time of being soaked/saturated. Was in a bandsaw pile. I was actually livid with the guys for abandoning such a class act, and was told, "you like it so much, YOU take it," and I did.
Posted by: pappy19

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/08/18 12:40 AM

Starting tomorrow, Thursday, Cabelas has a Tarus 9mm on sale for $199.99. That's $50 off. Nice one to just throw in the ATV or your truck instead of your $600+ favorite.

Pap
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/08/18 09:25 AM

Lofty,
In my state,if it shoots,it is pretty much banned. Take the Ruger Mini-14 with that standard stock. That is OK. Put a folding stock on it and it now is an assault weapon and banned.

The Walther P-22,because it has a threaded bbl,it is an assault weapon.....Yipes!!!!!

Forget about those evil automatic knives!! You can own them....but no carry them!!

Pappy,
I just saw a Cabelas ad,looks like they are slling Ruger LCPs for $179.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/08/18 11:26 AM

And, heck, guys, I already bought GLOCKS to preserve favorites. NOT buying another gun to preserve them, or next thing, will be carrying a slingshot to preserve an LCP. (DON'T LOOK, WAYNE! I KNOW SLINGSHOTS ARE ILLEGAL THERE, TOO...and a bunch of other places, and have been for a loooong time, even where carrying a bowie is legal.)
Posted by: pappy19

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/08/18 12:34 PM

The LCP is a .380 and I wanted another 9mm and the Taurus has a 3"+ barrel, so pretty accurate. Take down just like a Glock. I had a Kel-Tec.380 and shooting it was brutal, so I traded for a heavier North American stainless, but gave it to my grandson. My EDC is still a Glock 43 9mm.

Pap
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/08/18 01:20 PM

I luuuuv my little G43, has even displaced my old stainless Bodyguard (except for tighter pockets). Far more actual fun to shoot (feels like a full sized 1911 when shooting), and more horsepower than a snubbie can manage, said snubbies never exactly fun to shoot, much less, with serious loads. (probably repeated this elsewhere here, but after a lifetime search for a truly comfortable coat/jacket pocketable and reliable and powerful and comfortable shootable pistol, just cannot help it, the gun was way overdue)

Only mod I ever do is swap out to an OEM front tritium and call it done, and then always order a bunch of never used spares, as I do with every gun, after experiencing too many parts orphans in well loved guns.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/09/18 10:47 AM

Lofty,
Nothing at all wrong with the G-43. A tad bigger than my Ruger LCP but it is a Glock and pretty much says it all.

A far a spare parts go,I don't think that any are really needed.

I have a Model 36 that after untold rounds,the slide stop lever spring broke. Less than a week at Glock and it was back in my hands pretty much new.....no charge.

What ever your choice may be,it is the best choice for you.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/09/18 04:39 PM

Yep, and I had a 36, and it too was a sweetheart. Mainly jumped on the single stack 9 when it came out (only 25yrs late) because of hands matching the 9mm far better as for reach.

I must angle most Glocks to reach trigger, no problem in a full size, but thumb taking most of recoil in the 36, and not a very steady grip hurting consistancy was a bummer to me.

They worked out the kinks in the small bore single stack using the .380 rather than risk their 9mm rep, so that when the 9 hit the ground, it was a winner out of the gate.

Happily, for me, the first Glock which truly fits my hand well. If the 36 were the same config, would be happily shooting .45ACP.

And there is also the size issue, as the 43 is stuffed crossdraw canted outboard on left side under tucked in shirts, or carried in various jacket/coat pockets, my hideout, and only rarely stuffed behind right hip, as if carrying there, a larger gun the order of the day, like my Colt 1911 or SAA.

Those with meatier, or basketball player, paws, would likely find the G43 crowded or cramped. No gun is an island.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/10/18 09:32 AM

Lofty,
Yes,you are so right there. It is the fit that matters most whether it be in your hand or how it carries on your person.

In all honesty,I feel that the Glock 42 or 43 are pretty much the size of a J frame,give or take a bit.

Holster choice does make a BIG difference as well as having the proper belt (which is also very important).

I have a Milt Sparks summer special holster that I have for my 1911 Commander and must say that it pretty much makes the piece disappear. Of course,I am quite big (6'3"/240) so that does make a difference.

Being that I am an old fart,I still cling to my revolvers and prefer my Charter BullDog 44 that I have configured to their new Boomer model. It basically disappears in a IWB crossdraw.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/10/18 11:29 AM

Wayne, I gots me a stainless Boomer, too, which only lacks a cut back trigger guard to be the Fitz Special of old. The ports really cut back on flip pounding top of hand, and you might really appreciate ordering up a set of the rubber grips with which equipped, better than many/most for control and still concealment and comfort on a Bulldog.

The 43 IS approx J-frame size, and of identical weight to my old stainless Bodyguard, when both are loaded, and may as well add the Boomer to that size and weight when loaded. Three twin sons of different mothers.

For me, not using a holster, and just stuffed in waistband or jacket/coat pocket, the 43 has several carry pluses, mainly related to comfort and less wear and tear on pocket liners. All edges and corners are rounded off, no independent skinny barrel poking/prodding, ditto cylinder edges digging in, weight is distributed over a wider surface area in pocket, and less tendency to make a break for freedom out the bottom, eventually. But, the Bodyguard will fit places the G43 just will not, or pocket pulled too tight, and CAN be emptied from inside a jacket pocket as I know from experience, so, not out to pasture yet, and never will be.

I still have an old SS made by Milt, great holster to this day. Another old classic for a revolver and still (barely) made today are the Barami Hip Grips, the old police supply store still hanging on to existence, and those fit the Bulldog, as well.

And before anyone has a whole little litter of baby cows as for carrying a Glock out of a holster, and even (lands sakes!) in a pocket, the pocket is empty save the gun, so nothing to hook through trigger. While, when carried strongside or belly IWB, trigger completely covered by waistline and belt. And although holster makers have had almost the entire trade saved from extinction by ADs and NDs of Glocks/copies, and rise of kydex, most every such kaboom has been due to finger not outside of trigger when holstering, or those very self same stiff snaps and straps depressing (generally aftermarket lightened/improved) trigger on holstering. I know of one instance where even a leather holster had edge fold in aganst trigger and fire gun against pressure, and I feel very much safer with nothing rigid anywhere near my rosco, thank you kindly for your concern.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/11/18 09:15 AM

Lofty,
I go to the Charter plant several times a year to visit and give treats to their three BIG Golden Retrievers.

One of the dogs is named Boomer which their most recent BullDog model is named after.

The Bulldog that I "Boomerized" is an early model,blue, that I bobbed the hammer on,had MagnaPorted,and put the Tyler T-Grips on. Like you,I did not "Fitz Special" the trigger guard.

That grip configuration fits my hand well and I have no problem with recoil.
My pratice loads consist of 240 grain cast bullets over a charge of Trail Boss. "Duty" rounds are usually Hornady Critical Defense loads.

The other BullDog that I have is the Heller Comemorative stainless.

I have several other Charters to round out the stable. The first one I had,was one of the first ones on production in Jan '65 that was sent to me by Doug McClellahan when I was in 'Nam.

Yep,Charter and I go back a long way.

Wayne

PS- did you know that Doug McClellehan designed the 10/22 rifle when he worked at Ruger???
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/11/18 11:59 AM

You DO go back a ways, and am suitably impressed. I knew about Boomer, and time at Ruger, but if I ever knew of involvement with the 10/22, it surely is forgotten now, and thanks for pressing REFRESH, which seems needed more and more today.

PS- I go one better, ha! T-grip AND Barami (but, that is on the Bodyguard).
Posted by: Windsor

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/11/18 02:06 PM

I recently purchased a G43. It came with two magazines, one with the grip extension and one without.

I bought a Pearce grip extension online to swap into the mag with the flat baseplate.

It is just a hair larger than the factory grip extension baseplate, making for a perfect fit for my hands. I sourced a second one so that both magazines were set up nicely.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/11/18 02:25 PM

When I first went out back with the 43, set up a target at 25yds, and put 5 of 7 dead center inside 2" with one out 3" at 10, and the other same distance at 8 o'clock, standing/unsupported, was too impressed with the gun to pay attention to magazines.

Continued burning ammo through both magazines, went back inside, and only then, remembered one had an extension, and never noticed the difference when shooting.

Since this is a hideout for belly or pocket, was mighty pleased no extra bulk required, and the flush mags are the carry mags, extras were ordered, 6+1 gives same as a 1911 carried milspec, so sacrifice of easy hiding is just not worth it to me, and may as well carry a larger gun, such as the 17, which works better for concealed than even a 1911 as for belly, M65 or N3B pockets, etc. Again, much depends on build, hand size, clothing worn, job description, etc on what works, and many folk require a longer handle on a 43 simply to get a locked in hold, but I am not of that number.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/12/18 09:32 AM

Isn't it amazing to see how the folks on this forum change their carry piece to their attire?

Pretty much goes to show you that one piece is not for every situation.

Wayne
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/12/18 09:33 PM

I carry so that it can be seen, by those that know what to look for.
I like the nod from those who are ready. Reassuring that we haven't lost already!
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/12/18 10:12 PM

I only WISH I had one gun that would do it all. Would flush the rest of the crap in a heartbeat. As for being seen, even by those scoping out others, I normally try to avoid that, as it invites a grab. Not all folk doing the scoping are good guys, and I cannot stay point man vigilant 24/7 when even minutes can drain you.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 09:01 AM

Lofty,
I have just seen that DeSantis is now offering their "hip grips" for J frames. Available through them or Dillon Precision.

Right now I am starting to think about a "wardrobe change" for the change in seasons.

Gives me a reason to change and practice with different pieces.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 10:48 AM

Wayne, I honestly think the original Barami is a better hip grip, I guess their patent finally expired. It matches factory profile perfectly. Originally, you may recall, it was just the right panel. Much later, came the matching left panel, and the later panel may need a bit of pocket knife trimming, but still perfect factory sub to degree factory screw is juust right. They sell directly off of Amazon, not being able to advertise, a small family shop, the old man still answers the phone (or, as he puts it, still ALLOWED, and he's got stories, for sure), last I called at the old store in West Bloomfield.
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 05:37 PM

This one is about as pocket as it gets. This little Micro Might chambered in 22Mag belongs to Miss Deb. It's too small for my mitts though. Our good friend Steve engraved it for her.
Posted by: GCTom41

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 06:03 PM

Nice touch with the engraving!

Tom Flynn
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 06:24 PM

Well the story plays like this.... Steve delivers my newly engraved Bond Arms, and you know who just HAD to have her's done too.
He does nice work and their family is like family to us.
Posted by: pappy19

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 07:49 PM

I have carried my NA Arms .22 mag in my shirt pocket many times, especially in the summer in my back pocket or shirt pocket. I still think that a .22 mag hollow point within 20 feet is just as deadly, or more, than a 38. At least I have something and it is made in the USA and well built.

Pap
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 08:28 PM

My old faithful NAA Magnum also always somewhere handy, and has been a pal for years and years and years. Actually, as far as horsepower, what you come close to getting is a .22 rifle shooting solids.



Velocity not up to 1200fps (some as low as 1000fps) for expansion of LR, and magnum bullets normally rather tough for higher impact velocity.

So, I choose whatever ammo handy with largest meplat or nose riveting potential.

It certainly will reach the CNS from any angle, and capable of putting someone down instantly with good placement. And, also LOUD and impressive flash, which is all one really needs most times to modify human behavior more to one's own liking.

Once the shooting starts, most everybody goes the other way. We spend a lot of money training soldiers to overcome that instinct, and actually go towards the noise and shooting. It is hard.

Back to the guns, they can be quite accurate and stay that way when only jacketed magnum used. I have seen regular Long Rifle swifty lead a Mini into a smoothbore with keyholing bullets of such low velocity from sideways flight that they bounced off a 1" diameter limb at only 10ft distance and came back and whacked the shooter in the collar bone. It hurt.

Cut to the chase, the standard length bbl MiniMag is no 6" revolver about equalling a .38" Spl. It is more a pocket .22 rifle shooting standard velocity ammo. Deadly, but no spectacular havoc wreaker.
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/13/18 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: pappy19
I have carried my NA Arms .22 mag in my shirt pocket many times, especially in the summer in my back pocket or shirt pocket. I still think that a .22 mag hollow point within 20 feet is just as deadly, or more, than a 38. At least I have something and it is made in the USA and well built.

Pap


A 22 Mag can be devastating if delivered properly. NAA built great firearms Pap. Ours is a powered metal gun out of PM Pennsylvania where many things including gears, and drivetrain automotive components are Powered Metal.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/14/18 03:32 PM

I have several of those NAA good gadgets. About 12 years ago,I gave a demonstration to the officers in my squad on how effective the 22 mag round was in a NAA PUG with a 1" bbl.
I filled a plastic gallon milk jug with warm water and we went out to the salt/sand shed and I put the jug in the base of a sand bank and putting the muzzle of the OUG about a foot away touched off one of the CCI hollow point magnum rounds.
Instant shower!!! Blew the jug to smithereens!

According to Bill Jordan in his book No Second Place Winner he gives the 22 mag round high praise.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/14/18 05:18 PM

The NAA has only one downside, and really only a wardrobe specific thing. And perhaps even only then when the bejabbers shot out of it, and mainspring light and preparing to break, which they eventually do.

I found out in my tight studly jeans days, that in front pocket, the hammer could get eased off the safety notch and found resting on a live round. Not a problem in the pocket, but a big problem if dropped when removing from same.

But, again, all those conditions had to be met for it to happen. As mentioned previous page, good ammo should be giving circa 1200fps out of the MiniMag.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/15/18 08:39 AM

I have found a similar problem with the NAA Mini in a kydex neck holster. During the draw,it would cause the cylinder to rotate and come under the hammer.

Not a good situation. For me,a IWB or pocket holster takes care of the problem.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/15/18 11:54 AM

Wayne, your problem is downright curious to me, without seeing the holster.

The hamner nose is supposed to rest in notches on cylinder, preventing rotation, until hammer eased back...which is what happened in front pocket with tight fitting jeans not only the gun often in a bind.

And kydex on the draw would pull hammer more firmly against cylinder (again, no idea of holster coverage). If the holster involves the hammer, it might be that insertion is what is easing back hammer and freeing cylinder. Keeping thumb pressure on back of hammer while inserting would likely prevent that latter thing.

I just make sure the gun is in nothing which can push back on hammer, which seems can also happen inside a pocket holster in a tight spot, so gun not put in tight spots, as I learned with the jeans.Then, it seems to stay as inert as a small rock and no need of extra safeties to push or whatever.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/16/18 08:30 AM

Yes,the hammer nose did rest in the notch between the chambers,but for some reason,during a rapid draw ( I did this with an EMPTY piece) the cylinder would rotate enough to put the nose in the chamber. And,I was careful to be sure that the hammer was not touched during the draw.

In the IWB or pocket holster,over the years,no worries,ever.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/16/18 12:23 PM

Bizarre that it should happen on the draw and not the insertion. Well, guns and knives always remain mysteries, and keeps them interesting.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/17/18 11:14 AM

When I woukd insert the piece in the neck holster,I would check to see if the cylinder did rotate,but it did not. Only on the draw did it "slip a notch".

Obviously I never used that holster and used the IWB or pocket holsters w/o any problems.

Yes,I may be crazy,but not stupid.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/17/18 11:45 AM

yep, i figured you woulda checked, and am still trying to wrap mind around what could be happening to do that....could just be a draw twisting moment overcoming hammer tension? I dunno, but am with you on dropping that wonderful gizmo.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/18/18 08:53 AM

I always make sure that the mini is in a proper holster and not just jumbling around in the pocket with loose change/stuff.

If you want,PM me with your snail mail address and I will send it to you to check it out and,if you want,keep it or discard it.

Remember......................empty gun!!!

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/18/18 11:56 AM

I appreciate you trying to send me a death trap holster from hell, Wayne, I really do, but, as much as I want to shoot myself sometimes, I will trust you on this one and stear entirely clear of such gizmos.

As for empty pockets, I cannot even stand to tear up a decent pocket knife by putting in pocket with change and keys and etc, all quite apart from safety concern with NAAs and especially Glocks.

A loaded gun mixed in a jumble of anything anywhere is just asking for trouble, makes no difference if drawer, chest, or pockets.

Seriously, thanks for holster examination offer, but, if it is happening, it is happening, would not have any better x-ray vision than you if it is happening for sure on draw, and I certainly need no such thing around here, and truthfully not at all partial to kydex on anything....might even be illegal, the bump-fire holster.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/19/18 08:40 AM

Lofty,
OK,the Clinton/Obama designed gizmo will stay in the "corrosion corner" somewhere.

Gosh! "Bump fire holster" what will they think of next???

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/19/18 01:16 PM

I have the three dusty holster/sheath/grip boxes.....they were yelling, NO ROOM!! NO ROOM!!, and fearing a revolt, I caved to pressure. Warming up for that congressional run.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/20/18 08:48 AM

John Bianchi had done a study and said that the average gun owner has two to three holsters for each handgun over a period of time.

I think that is somewhat underestimated at least as far as my minis go.

Gosh! The amount of stuff I tried out for them!!!

Most of the other pieces,I go with El Paso Saddlery and pretty much that was it.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/20/18 11:08 AM

Any holster ever bought for any gun has eventually ended in THE BOX, especially once any likelihood of confrontations with holstered weapons went away, or running/jumping/climbing/etc as well. Am chasing nobody down, and anybody not coming for me is welcome to exit stage left.

Have been far more worried about a good hold, and various grips tried on various guns, and own mods to same grips boggles the mind. Again, today, if it doesn't fit, I just do not buy it.

Gun owners, and guys in general are tinkerers, or, maybe were considering current generational trends and lack of ANY mechanical curiosity on the part of the solid state integrated circuit chip generation. If it CAN be taken apart, it WILL come apart, if it CAN be changed, somebody WILL try to change it, holster, sights, grips, barrels, internals, etc. Much of the time, to no avail whatsoever.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/21/18 11:12 AM

Lofty,
What was the last thing you put on a car that you "customized"?

A for sale sign!!!

Pretty much goes for firearms too. Yes,I like to gagetize stuff but actually pretty well keep thing stock for serious stuff.

Usually I have my Glock 36 on me with Hydra-Shoks but always a Mini as well. All are stock.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 10:05 AM

I have sold a lot more firearms than cars, and masked man speaks truth.

Thought I would throw out some 9mm ammo trivia here. If you check online video reviews including gel tests, you will find the Winchester white box 9mm 115gr JHP working about as well out of several pocket 9mms as any premium stuff.

Approaching 1200fps out of some of them, and only real difference not being clone picture perfect mushrooms, but same expanded diameter, penetration and stretch cavities. And hardly any difference, that, than rude unfun .357 lightweights out of snubbies, which is why I now carry the well mannered and fun G43, that, and can aim the thing.

The 147gr is NOT being discussed here, only the 115gr. Which means flipping back and forth between it and their 115gr loss leader FMJ makes for pretty much identical shooting experience whether on range or street.
Posted by: LarryWW1246

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 11:03 AM

Some reading re 9mm:

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 11:20 AM

The caliber and semi vs revolver debate will go on as long as folks are on this planet.

The variables go on into infinity.

Makes for good campfire talk though.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 11:40 AM

Being that a .45 has 62% more frontal area than a 9mm/.357, which out of shorties are lucky to expand to .45cal at all on impact, not much debate in my mind except can I conceal and control a pocket version of any of them. The only one for me which hits on all cylinders is the little 9mm. Would much prefer a .45, otherwise.

Tbe debates are rather stale today given the dumbing down of the .357 magnum, plus not many carry a 4"-6" version anymore. The old law enforcement .38 Special loads which could do 1400fps and .357 loads topping 1500fps were whole different animals, and truly could drop somebody like lightning. But most all loads today across calibers so equal that debating them is as debating what color is best, red or green, or which is a better carpenter tool, a hammer or a saw.

Late PS- certainly not worth another post, but you know you are maybe too accustomed to carrying guns, when you head out to the car, and must turn around and go back inside, because who goes anywhere without a gun, and once back in bedroom deciding what to take, you realize you had one with you, already. It also says you are maybe getting old.
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 08:48 PM

To me it comes down to how well you shoot, & how long is your reaction time.
When I carry its the gun & the mag that it has in it on me.
Yes I have more with me but I don't bring more in the restaurant with me. So I pack the 9mm, 15 rounds, but I much prefer the .45 for stopping & shock.
As for dumbing down the .357, you are so right there. About 1983ish I took a .357 125 grain jacketed hollow point in my right shoulder.
Just dumb luck that I lived, it hit my collar bone & shattered the bullet, broke my collar bone in 2 places, ended up with a non-reunion and a gap of about a half inch in my collar bone.
I was out of action for months. Plenty of power there.
I think that the .45 is still popular some what because they "dumbed down" the .357. I mean hey short fat & slow has been getting the job done for a lot of years.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/22/18 09:29 PM

We had a guy in my town, fresh out a jail, still in his jail whites, shot in the upper arm with a Federal 125gr JHP, I just happened to be at the ER when pals drove up with him, and I saw the x rays, and no piece of bone larger than a toothpick from shoulder to elbow....I do not know if he kept his arm or not. You are indeed a fortunate man, and know you are thankful for being spared.

Full throttle .357 takes a big gun, to be any sort of shot, anyhow, and they are so fat and heavy, and at bestest when longest. The .45 is a puddytat in comparison, for controllable, rapid, accurate, as Cooper finally got folk to compare. Almost the exact same debate between .45 and .357 then, as we have between 9mm and .45 today.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/23/18 08:09 AM

Lofty,
Nope not getting old,just used to packing heat and not realizing that you have a piece on you.

About two years ago a friend of mine was shot almost point blank with a 12 ga during a home invasion.

Took the hit in his right shoulder. I thought that he was going to loose pretty much everything but his is pretty much back to 100% now.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/23/18 12:07 PM

The (blank) I am not getting old! And same with your friend, who is likely too old to be invading homes, anyhow.

Glad to hear he is ok, and hope the perp got what was coming.

Classic older guy story told with Brit understatement. The older we get, the slower we get, but he knew where to hit.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/02/22/...ding-thugs.html
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 08:33 AM

Lofty,
My friend is doing quite well and the perp is currently in the slam with a host of state,local and federal charges. Probably will be eligible for parole in 2099.

Little off subject,apparently the school in FL had an armed security guard,who when TSHTF,ran and hid. Could have stopped the whole thing before it started.

Sometimes,I think people want this stuff to happen,then blame everything else.

Wayne
Posted by: Duke

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 08:58 AM

Yep. Talk about "Branded". Some run to...some run away. And, as you know, almost nobody knows till he knows.
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 11:35 AM

Well said Wayne & Duke......unfortunately it's too true!
Posted by: Steven

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 12:28 PM

Darn none of my business, but what is the story on your getting shot?
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 12:53 PM

Short & sweet
She said she was divorced
He came home with a gun
He was losing it so I grabbed gun
wasn't fast enough, pulled it from center of my chest to a hit in the shoulder.
Needed another couple of inches and it would have missed.
the rest is boring.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 03:29 PM

Many have faced enraged exes...many have died, both sides, glad you survived.

As mentioned prior, somewhere, the military spends a lot of money to train folk to run towards gunfire, rather than away. It is even in manuals/handbooks as to proper reaction in certain scenarios.

And still, a hard instinct to break, the running the other way. That deputy was able to excuse inaction by following old SOP, establish perimeter, call in description, hold position and await reinforcements.

My gripe is he is old. Most of us older folk already can see we are dying sooner rather than later, and nothing really to lose and everything to gain by charging in. Some of us have already been there, seen the elephant as a Civil War soldier called it, and that is no guarantee of nuthin', as several disgraced prior hero soldiers have shown. I have no idea about this guy, but he was old enough to know better. Personally, can say I know what I would do, which is cross myself and ask for success but not my will be done...nothing heroic, but a chance to choose manner of death rather than guess what the short future holds, much of it downright pathetic....a younger guy, with a forever future, maybe wife and kids, I can see hesitating, but not grandpa...
As mentioned also prior, here is an old fart reaction typical....
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/02/22/...ding-thugs.html

That deputy will live in hell the rest of his life, and hear those shots and screams for the rest of it, and know he should have done more. He has his punishment, already. Folk should have only pity for him, now.

PS- the above was mentioned because what happened and didn't was cause for a great amount of soul searching, as it likely is for about everybody, after the reflexive reaction is passed.
Posted by: LarryWW1246

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 06:03 PM

Just heard on TV that there were three more armed Sheriff's Deputies on site, but did not go in to engage. [I suspect they are not trained in the skills needed to engage a bad guy in the midst of many innocent people, and would be held accountable for any casualties among those they are to protect.]

Sheriff Israel is throwing stones at the NRA (wonder if he is posturing for some electoral bid) and the NRA is throwing rocks at him.

The shouting and fault finding does nothing to get at underlying social, cultural, and institutional problems.

Meanwhile, something else that is interesting to watch--politicians don't want to be undercut by having their policy positions taken away from them by the opposition.
Posted by: tunefink

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 06:06 PM

Guys, keep the politics in the Lounge. These conversations often go off the rails.

Thanks,
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/24/18 07:32 PM

righto....I have been also amused the Glock talk threads turn inevitably to 1911, while a 1911 discussion turns to Glock, while this one on a map pocket whippet turns to NAAs, Glocks, AND 1911s.

Ain't it grand!
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/25/18 08:59 AM

OHMYGOSH!

Now you guys have gotten me really confused!! I don't know what to talk about!!!

Wayne
Posted by: Michael_Mason

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/25/18 09:26 AM

Originally Posted By: Wayne Dengler
OHMYGOSH!
Now you guys have gotten me really confused!! I don't know what to talk about!!!
Wayne

There's always the subject of women grin
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/25/18 09:56 AM

The older you get, the more THAT one is like discussing a museum visit, one half of the museum dedicated to the theory of beauty thru the ages, and the other half, aircraft crashes and train wrecks thru history
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/26/18 08:10 AM

And then there is the subject about pocket pistols,I don't know how that compares with all the other stuff but it is still interesting.

I just thought that I would add to the confusion.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/26/18 08:32 PM

I wish I could contribute more, but had stuck with the stainless Bodyguard and then the NAA since the '80s, until the little Glocks came out. In the meanwhile, from the 70's to date, a pile of money trying about everything else ever made, from 1920s Sauer ünd Söhn German stuff, Babys, Bauer, Seecamp and clones, on up. Reliable is what counted, and they all went away, sooner or later.

The G43 pretty much a culmination of a search which would fit in a pocket, work every time, and put them all in a handspan at 25yds, and even a decent round. I know that with nothing, if the CNS not tagged, the game is still on, and I wanted accurate enough to do that.
Posted by: pappy19

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/26/18 09:59 PM

My 43 will dang near shoot with my 19, it's amazing.

Pap
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/26/18 11:03 PM

I am glad to hear mine is not a fluke...two, actually. As posted elsewhere, and probably more than once, I took my shiny toy out back to the 25yd line, simply standing there, and very first magazine put 5 dead center under 2" with one out 3" from center at 8 o'clock and one out 3" from center at 10 o'clock. I felt as if I were shooting a full sized service pistol .45ACP. All I could think was, "...after all this time....finally...."

The other has done just as well, the first was gifted to a female friend needing something, and it a known good one, and have had zero malfunctions of any sort whatsoever with either. Icing on the cake has been generally showing only a 50-75fps velocity loss from what a G17 gets with most ammo. Am getting just shy of 1200fps with the WinWhite 115grJHPs which are just as reliable expanders out of the 43 as the boutique stuff, only not as pretty.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/27/18 07:47 AM

I found out that for me,I tend to shoot to the left with Glocks,the problem is with me,not the gun.

I corrected my fault by "hooking" my trigger finger onto the trigger and it would help me align the sights better and right on target.

I have a hard time deciding which to carry,my Glock 36 or my Charter Arms Bulldog that I converted to a "Boomer" configuration.

Also in the mix would be my Bond Arms Texas Defender usually in the 410/45LC configuration.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/27/18 10:34 AM

With that long kerSCHPROINGBUZZzzzz trigger, a common complaint with Glock, not helped at all by long triggers. I have the same problem with any full sized auto, or even smaller, and rare are autos my stumpy digits can hook the trigger.

hence, the love of my old 22/45 Ruger with stubby 4" bull barrel pocket rifle, which dupes my 1911 setup with flat MSH and short trigger, and which is also nearly duped in all respects by the G43. With those three, if one does not fit, likely the other will not, either, all very similar in backstrap, girth, and reach. This all bears directly upon the above quoted accuracy with the G43, a wandering gun simply wrecks accuracy.

Keeps pointing free and easy, everything same same. Good sights on all three a big plus, as well. The Smith J/K/L works mighty fine for me, as does the Charter, which is right in there with those three in reach.

Mentioned all this as it might mean something to someone else who knows one fits, but wonders about another.

As for derringers, ah, the memories. The Bond Arms guy formerly worked at American Derringer, and absconded with learned know-how to do his own successful take after the owner died and left his widow running the place. I had the very first .45 Colt ADC ever made, back when original owner still alive, it was originally made as a suprise gift unique personal SN for noted writer/original Shootist (Rev) Hal Swiggett in thanks for early publicity helping the company greatly in even getting off the ground, but let I someone else have the derringer who appreciated its heritage greatly.

Late addition just to post a Peter Piper post a pic of pocket pistol, a pocket pistol pick did Peter Piper pic, for rainy day photo phun.



Sadly, today I must show off this side just to prove it is a "real" Bodyguard, when formerly there was only just a ho-hum Bodyguard in the photo.



For those who only got into shooting in the last several decades, the J-frame was lighter and shorter before they decided to intro the .357 frame, and then dump the .38Spl frame, regardless of chambering. Not many guns can be fired until empty from inside a jacket/coat pocket, but this is one of 'em. And THE most snag free design they made, rounded stern even better than the sharp corner of the Centennial, and why the original Centennial did not last, on top of its lack of crisp SA fire capability for a precise shot. This gun is both slick and fairly light, and very crisp, they actually did them that way back then, hard as it is to believe, today.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/28/18 07:58 AM

Lofty,
That Bodyguard is a classic PLUS those Tyler-T grips are the added touch.

Basically all of my Charters have Tyler-T grips. They don't add bulk but do improve the grip greatly.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/28/18 12:01 PM

Wayne, normally it wears the Baramis plus Tyler, but the gun mainly used in winter for pocket carry, no hip grip handle works under a tucked in shirt. Come warmer weather and untucked shirts, the Baramis go back on.

As for the T-grip, it plus factory wood beats most custom grips and current factory rubber for control AND comfort. Most new grips concentrate on skinny/flat, fly back in hand, and what filler they add at top of grip either also skinny and hard, or inadequately thick rubber, so frame pounds base joint of thumb/web. The wider old factory wood plus T-grip allows an actual hold enough to CONTROL the gun, puts the recoil back in palm where it belongs, and only a stinging slap there, rather than bone with skin stretched tight taking the gun rearing back.

Took me a while to admit most customs no good in comparison, was sucked into the boot grip thing and wondered why I had started hating J-frames, and why they hurt when memory told me they didn't seem so bad when I was younger. Just another example of failed must-have "improvements".
Posted by: LarryWW1246

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/28/18 12:35 PM

Lofty--

You might be familiar with Fuzzy Farrant's wood grips.

I have a one-of-a-kind pair for a J-frame that is quite comfortable.

Shoot me a PM in May and I will pull them out and get a photo just for info if you would like to see them.

Larry
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 02/28/18 02:49 PM

Larry, I actually had a set. They reminded me of a blend of Herrett and Spegel today, some of his required frame mods. They were actually better than many today, and Fuzzy has been gone 20yrs now, it seems. Actually, they were a bit bulkier than the factory with T-grip, great for a holster gun, except I never use a holster except to add as more filler to the dusty holster box. Thank you kindly for the offer of the pics, but met him and his boys years back. I guess they are now long retired, too (from the PD, don't think they ever took up Fuzzy's work).
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/01/18 08:50 AM

Fuzzy's grip were very well made and fitted the frame like a glove.
Top those grips with a holster made by Chic Gaylord and you really had a good combination.

Wayne
Posted by: LarryWW1246

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/01/18 10:25 AM

Farrant grips--

The pair I have are made from African blackwood that I sent to Fuzzy. When he sent them to me, he included a note: "Next time, I will supply the wood."

They are a bit longish to accommodate the pinky and give a bit more control--although that is not such a problem for me.

And they have a single checkered palm swell for the right hand only--making them less bulky than those with a double palm swell.

Larry
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/01/18 11:12 AM

Yeah, Chic was great. The ones of his done by Bell Charter Oak keep his name and art alive. My favorite bizarre was always the New York Reload with a pair of 36s.

As for the blackwood, would think his cutter needed cleaning every diamond or two. Those sound lovely, by the way, and a picture posted would be most welcome when May comes around.

I think the best duty grip was always the wood and T-grip with a wad of rubber bands twisted around the handle, field-expedient custom.

Late PS- I could talk about various small guns nearly forever, as over my life, there are very few not tried. Always was on the search for that elusive pocket sniper rifle capable of taking mice to elephant, and as rugged and reliable as a solid steel bar. Plus, what works for one person's build, dress habits, job description, etc may not, or will likely not (in my experience and to great harm to wallet), work for somebody else. I stuck with the Bodyguard all these years because it is a tack driver with the old LSWCHP over 2400, even if my eyes no longer up to it anymore, and now have it loaded with a boutique premium which actually DOES expand some at .38SPL velocities. But, I feel far from unarmed with any of them, whether the pocket .22LR rifle NAA mimimag, Bodyguard, G43, whatever, they all will do the job if I do my part.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/02/18 09:21 AM

Lofty,
That pretty much sums it up quite well.

They will do the job if you do your part.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Just yesterday,yet another coyote attack near by. Some folks were bitten and a dog was killed. Obviously,especially in this area,nobody packed heat.

Wayne
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/02/18 11:35 AM

Coyote attacks pretty rare down south and out west as the ones which hide and skulk and slink are the ones who live very long, the brazen ones get whacked pretty quick away from places such as Atalanta, DFW, etc. What they have done to formerly plentiful quail is a cryin' shame, and those who do not want poor mother nature interfered with are the ones living in highly artificial unnatural large cities and haven't seen Precious ripped to pieces before their eyes.
I never can stay anywhere long where having a carbine in the car, and a pistol in my pocket is frowned upon. I hate feeling defenseless and a fish in a big ocean counting on the sharks to eat the OTHER fish in my large school. THAT feels unnatural, unless I were a cow or a sheep or a rabbit.
Posted by: LarryWW1246

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/02/18 04:25 PM

Heard that a lady walking her Rottweiler end of day last week was attacked by a coyote in a residential area of Vero Beach, Florida. Apparently the dog prevailed in scaring away the coyote, and neither he nor the lady were actually bitten.

Larry
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/02/18 11:48 PM

Florida may as well be a blend of Chicago, Jersey, and New York, for much of its populated areas. And same outlook on firearms, while so densely populated in those same areas that there sure isn't much shooting going on except in pistol parlors.

From my time in NYC, I judge it a wonder nobody killed there yet by a squirrel, the former wildlife so emboldened, well fed, bigger all the time, and etc., after watching squirrels work together to dump over a closed trash can and spread the contents near and far, and also seeing a squirrel chow down on a grackle wing while sitting in a tree crotch.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/03/18 09:04 AM

Last year,right near my area,there were several attacks by coyotes on folks walking their dogs. Three dogs were killed,three injured and several people bitten.

My friend let his dog out one morning and three coyotes attacked and killed it. Several days later a deer crashed through his neighbor's sliding glass door with two coyotes hanging on to it.

An acquaintance of mine,in a nearby community has over that passed year harvested over 50+ coyotes,all weighing more than 50 lbs,one topped 65!!!

His weapon of choice is an M-4 300 Whisper suppressed.

Wayne
Posted by: Chief

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/03/18 02:56 PM

All BS aside we are going to get a rabies breakout one day and coyotes will be seen by everyone a little different.
Posted by: pappy19

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/03/18 03:21 PM

When I worked on the Alaska Pipeline in 1974-75, we received the Fairbanks newspaper. Hardly a day went by that the newspaper would have a picture of what was left of a pet, that a homeowner let out to do it's business. All the wolves left was the head and part of the spinal cord.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/03/18 06:17 PM

As a rural guy, as much as possible, and pretty much all over, everywhere the 'yotes move in, most all other ground based wildlife, feathered and furred, is wiped out. Period.

I can only hope they make inroads enough into center of power major metro areas that the politicians and populace see what a menace they are, and get the votes and popular will to do something, rather than same currently seeing doing anything as akin to eating dog meat in the far east, and killing only a wild cute Fido.
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/03/18 08:39 PM

I'm probably repeating the story but 15 years ago or so, I just got into my ground blind opening week of deer season. Wasn't a few minutes before I had at least 6 critters circling the wagons. Never got a clear look at them but I will remember the dark shadows at 6:15am forever. Back then I hunted that spot with a single shot 45-70 Contender pistol. Taught me a valuable lesson walking into the woods early morning or anytime. My 10mm is always strapped to my leg on tactical holster.

And this story has nothing to do with Pocket Pistols. But just to be clear, I wish I had my Bond Arms .45/410 that day.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/04/18 08:10 AM

Warren,
Tha 10mm,is it a Glock or Delta Elite???

There are several stories of folks ,during turkey season,using a turkey call only to have a coyote soon on the scene staring them in the face.

Nothing wrong with a Bond 410/45LC on your side instead of the 10mm. Both,in my opinion will get the job done.

Wayne
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/04/18 08:30 AM

Wayne,

G20. It's not a pocket pistol as the thread suggests. I do carry my Bond outside of hunting season.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/04/18 10:57 AM

Where I am from, we have feral very VERY large hog, and they will kill and eat you just as surely as any wolf or little wolf, and folk get wise very quickly to carry a sidearm, whether a cap and ball during muzzleloader season, or centerfire the rest of the time.

To bring the thread full circle, that Pedersoli double at the very front of thread is used with the belt holster by quite a few muzzleloading hunters as both a finisher and backup in the woods, as the TC is a lightning reload in comparison to Ole Sue Betsy. The thing has actual use.
Posted by: Wayne Dengler

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/05/18 08:22 AM

Lofty,
That double looks super great. Nice to see that it is used to it's full capacity!!

Warren,
Super nice G-20,I presume that one of the extra bbl has regular rifling so you can use cast bullets??

Wayne
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/05/18 08:41 AM

Wayne,

Stock G20 barrel also 6" hunter barrel. The other is a K&E .40 barrel for inexpensive plinking.
Posted by: Lofty

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/05/18 10:46 AM

I am a big fan of machined steel over plastic for same money, but probably would prefer a G20 over a Colt for 10mm for that famous kinder Glock recoil absorption, with springier frame and smoother back. That one gets me thinking of buying one, again.
Posted by: W Polidori

Re: Pocket pistols... - 03/05/18 11:34 AM

You won't regret it.