"We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Posted by: BoBlade
"We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/20/09 01:13 PM
Bernie posted a photo of a 2-5 in "This Old Randall" thread last week that came in a sheath with an odd brown painted metal snap. Based on the knife and sheath attributes, the era was narrowed down to circa 1960 give or take. The sheath was assumed to be Johnson because of the Randall stamp.
About 4 years ago I picked up a circa 1960 3-6 that had been pitted and cleaned by the shop. I normally wouldn't buy a cleaned knife, but this one was mated with a very unusual sheath that had brown painted metal snaps and just a "3-6" stamped on the back. The sheath matched up pretty close to another BB Johnson 3-6 that I had (Including what seemed to be the same "3" and "6" die stamp), and my initial thought was that it may have been a prototype that Johnson made up before Bo brought him on as a steady supplier:
Moving forward, another circa 1960 3-6 came up on e-bay 3 or 4 months ago and damned if that sheath didn't have similar brown painted metal snaps! The kicker was that in addition to the "3-6" stamp on the back there was a Heiser stamp! That changed my mind about who made that previous 3-6 sheath.
Now Bernie comes up with another circa 1960 sheath with a similar snap (Although Bernie's snap might be a tad larger).
Many Randall collectors are aware of the fact that the shop and Heiser ran out of Brown button snaps in the very early 50's as you see a number of Heiser sheaths from that period with alternatives. From the three circa 1960 examples that have surfaced, there might have been a short period of time around 1960 that again the supply of BB snaps were depleted.
Footnote and food for thought: I think I remember hearing or reading that on good authority Heiser never sent the shop any unmarked sheaths and the shop never stamped the model / blade length nor the Randall logo on sheaths, but if they did that would explain why we see Randall logo stamped sheaths that seem to predate Gary's 1st contact with Johnson in 1962 (Gaddis 224).
Best,
Ron,
Good thread, dude! The "1962" theory could very well hold true with Burnie's knife. The "first one in...last one out" snap theory as well. Also: Folks need to realize that it was not at all uncommon in the 60's (or earlier...or later) for a customer to "request" certain spacers, sheaths, snaps, etc. be supplied, if possible, on a special ordered knife.
These "split-loop" sheaths have a pretty decent window of time. Anyway ya' swing it, it's a nice vintage piece...and how about the "shape" of that name plate?
Best, Capt. Chris
Posted by: tunefink
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/20/09 05:01 PM
Ron, great post... you have a knack for the details Brother. Here is an early 50's snap variant. 1-8... in a Heiser.
Posted by: Steven
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/20/09 07:43 PM
Great info, very interesting.
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/21/09 08:45 AM
Thanks, Guys. There's still a lot of Randall mysteries that remain unsolved. That's a big part of the collecting fun.
Best,
Posted by: TonyLaPetri
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/21/09 08:57 AM
Great stuff!
Very informative ... THANKS!
Tony
Posted by: crutchtip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/21/09 03:29 PM
A couple of things come to mind here Ron. The leather on the unmarked sheath, particulalry the nape on the rear, is a bit different than on the RMK marked sheath, although it is not atypical of Johnson leather. It does not appear to be Heiser leather nor stitiching for that matter.
Also, the keeper snap location is different than on the Johnson. If you look at Heiser or Johnson brown button sheaths from the period, generally the keeper snap is located in the middle of the sheath as on the example pictured, not to the far side as on the unmarked sheath. The Heiser is odd in that it has the keeper in that same location as the unmarked sheath. I can see that throwing you a curve ball.
One thing that really stands out is the guy that stiched it must have been have way though his bottle of Beam when he made this sheath. This, is reminicent of Stockman quality, or lack thereof.
I don't think it is unreasonable to say this could be an early Johnson prototype or 'one off' not unlike Stockman had been doing for some time. Based on the evidence we have seen over the years, I think it stands to reason and the concensus seems to be Maurice Johnson was involved at some level as early as 1960, but definitely by 1961.
You do have to consider that this whole thing could be explained away by an interupption of the supply of or running short of the logo marked brown buttons.
Posted by: Perry Miller
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/22/09 10:09 PM
Very good thread Ron...learn something every day!
Posted by: Rhett Stidham
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/22/09 11:21 PM
Thanks Ron. A great informative thread. Your continued educational postings here are greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Rhett
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 11:10 AM
Tony / Perry / Rhett: Thanks. My pleasure.
Joe,
I appreciate your thoughts. I'll try to address them all:
Quote:
A couple of things come to mind here Ron. The leather on the unmarked sheath, particulalry the nape on the rear, is a bit different than on the RMK marked sheath, although it is not atypical of Johnson leather. It does not appear to be Heiser leather nor stitiching for that matter.
I've seen a large variation in the look and surface finish of the backs of both Heiser and Johnson sheaths. IMO there is no way you can attribute the back of the unmarked sheath to either provider in particular. The stitching (and all other attributes)of the unmarked sheath and the Heiser marked sheath are so similar that there is no doubt in my mind that the unmarked sheath is a Heiser.
Quote:
Also, the keeper snap location is different than on the Johnson. If you look at Heiser or Johnson brown button sheaths from the period, generally the keeper snap is located in the middle of the sheath as on the example pictured, not to the far side as on the unmarked sheath. The Heiser is odd in that it has the keeper in that same location as the unmarked sheath. I can see that throwing you a curve ball.
Again, I don't think you can attribute the set position of a diagonal keeper strap to either provider. I believe the reason for this is that the shop set the keeper and not the provider. In both Heiser and Johnson sheaths you see the set both in the middle and at the far side. Take a look at the group of sheaths below.
The 5 on the left are Johnsons. 3 with middle sets and 2 with far side sets. The one sheath on the right is a Heiser. It has a middle set which differs from the earlier Heiser marked sheath which is far side set. (If you look closely at the both the unmarked sheath and the earlier Heiser sheath which is far side set, you will see a "pin prick" start of middle set on both!).
Quote:
One thing that really stands out is the guy that stiched it must have been have way though his bottle of Beam when he made this sheath. This, is reminicent of Stockman quality, or lack thereof.
Have you ever had a bad day at work, Joe
Quote:
I don't think it is unreasonable to say this could be an early Johnson prototype or 'one off' not unlike Stockman had been doing for some time. Based on the evidence we have seen over the years, I think it stands to reason and the concensus seems to be Maurice Johnson was involved at some level as early as 1960, but definitely by 1961.
As I stated above, I'm convinced that the unmarked sheath is a Heiser. I'm also not convinced that Johnson was involved earlier than 1962. It's more than OK that we have different opinions and that we have these discussions. That's the only way that we're going to get closer to the truth.
Best,
Posted by: 7033grip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 11:20 AM
Ron, that far right Heiser shows what great craftsmen he had out in Denver. The "butterfly" is Perfect on that sheath.
Someday, Heiser sheaths might be as collectible as the old Randalls.
Dubie Baxter
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 04:04 PM
Note the deep choil and sheath thats shaped like a heiser in the middle vs. shollow choiled knives and sheaths shaped like Johnsons on the outside. You can see a very clear difference....
Posted by: 7033grip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 04:17 PM
The deeper choils are mostly attributable to being an older design more than anything else.
Dubie Baxter
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 04:41 PM
Also note the shallow choil on this knife with a Johnson shaped sheath. You can also see a difference in the shape of the hilts - the 1-6 photographes with the other two knives has a thinner looking hilt than the others.
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 04:49 PM
Thanks, Stephen! You couldn't have found a better example of a Heiser (not Johnson) attribute sheath with a Randall (not Heiser) stamp than the one in the middle. The accompanying knife is also indicative of a grind prior to 1962.
Best,
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 04:59 PM
Ron,
Do any of the knives that go in these sheaths have pinned handles?
Posted by: 7033grip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 07:51 PM
Stephen, Ron is the expert, but if you don't see a brass pin on the stag knife with the Heiser sheath it's because it has a butt cap. Without the cap, the knife would have probably had a pin during that period.
Dubie Baxter
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/23/09 09:13 PM
Stephen,
None of the associated knives have pins. The only sheath old enough to have a pinned knife is the Heiser (mid 50's), but the knife that goes with that sheath has a leather handle.
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 12:00 AM
Quote:
Thanks, Stephen! You couldn't have found a better example of a Heiser (not Johnson) attribute sheath with a Randall (not Heiser) stamp than the one in the middle. The accompanying knife is also indicative of a grind prior to 1962.
No problem Ron - I am enjoying trying to find out what the sheaths from this period really are!
Somehow I missed the sheath on the right hand side of the photo below. It also has a "Heiser" look to it but not quite as pronounced as the one in the middle...the one on the left and the one in the photo by itself above seem to me to be distinctly shaped like Johnson sheaths.
Posted by: Kent_Warnberg
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 09:40 AM
Crutchtip and Ron,
Wow!
I can't believe all of the knowledge you have between the Both of you on knives/sheaths! I'll be the first to admit it, but I am usually Clueless (What else is new)?
to the year/and or who made a certain sheath. Both of you have helped loads by sharing your knowledge and keeping the rest of us informed!
Thanks!
Kent B. Warnberg
RKS #109
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 10:35 AM
You're welcome, Kent. But.............what's this "Crutchtip" sh%#? Elvis has had more sightings on this forum than Joe recently!
Best,
Posted by: Perry Miller
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 01:28 PM
Quote:
You're welcome, Kent. But.............what's this "Crutchtip" sh%#? Elvis has had more sightings on this forum than Joe recently!
Best,
Now that's funny Opie...
Posted by: Rhett Stidham
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 06:08 PM
Ronm
Here is a Heiser Model 1 sheath that you may compare your sheath to also.
Regards,
Rhett
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/24/09 06:20 PM
Great piece, Rhett! Thanks for posting it. Another circa '60 painted metal snap data point. That helps put some substance behind this thread's title. Is that a recent acquisition or have you had it for a while?
Best,
Posted by: Rhett Stidham
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 08:45 AM
It is not mine. A friend recently bought it in Arizona.
Regards,
Rhett
Posted by: Aggiemike
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 12:56 PM
This is a great forum but I think I am more confused thanever (nothing new in that). In summary we have:
1. Unmarked sheath with plain button (probably a Johnson by the the stone pouch is shaped).
2. The single keeper strap plain button in a Heiser.
3. The Model 2 Johnson with a plain button.
4. Rhett's friends sheath that is a Heiser with both buttons plain.
I am sorry but I cannot figure out te pattern in the use of the buttons. Then you throw in Stockman sheaths in this same era.I guess in 1961-62 Bo was trying out a lot of sheath options to see what he liked best. I am enclosing a photo of a knofe I no longer own but I feel is a Stockman and it was delivered in early 1961. Any other sheath oddities from this time?
Mike Webb
RKS #4107
Posted by: Aggiemike
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 12:58 PM
other side
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 03:06 PM
Hi Mike,
No need to feel like the Lone Ranger: No one I know of can identify for certain those sheaths that appear to be from the late 50's and very early 60's that are not marked Heiser. For sure Heiser and Stockman were making sheaths for Bo during that era and some believe that Johnson was involved before 1962.
Johnson became extremely good at duplicating Heiser sheaths in a relatively short period of time (Stockman never got that good IMO). If you take a Heiser sheath from '61 and a Johnson sheath from '63 and lay them face up, they are hard as heck to tell apart.
With regard to these sheaths that have surfaced with brown metal snaps: It seems to me that there is a higher probabability that they were all made around the same time as a result of the supply of brown buttons being depleted for a short time as opposed to them being used over a several year span. If one assumes the former, then we have an interesting mixture of sheaths made at the same time:
1. Bernie's 2-5 with a Randall stamp.
2. My 3-6 sheath with no stamp.
3. My 3-6 with a Heiser stamp.
4. Rhett's 1-7 with a Heiser stamp.
The "odd man out" is Bernie's 2-5 sheath with a Randall stamp! All the knives that we've seen paired with these sheaths to include the 2-5 have blade grinds (primarily choils) that indicate they were ground prior to 1962 when Johnson reportedly first arrived on the scene. We can easily rule out Stockman as the maker, so that leaves just Heiser as the maker of all four sheaths to include the 2-5 (Unless you want to believe that Johnson was involved prior to '62). Continuing this line of reasoning, there should be other Heiser sheaths with a Randall stamp. Sure enough we see sheaths that clearly have more Heiser charcteristics than Johnson such as Stephen's sheath in the middle of his photo as well as knives and sheaths that have date provenance prior to 1962 such as the double hilt 3-7 on page 169 of Bob Hunt's book "Randall Military Models".
I know I'm making a leap of faith assuming that all four sheaths were made at roughly the same time and that they were all made prior to 1962, but given there is no hard evidence to the contrary I'm leaning towards the belief that towards the end of Heiser's reign, Bo got them to agree to ship unmarked sheaths to the shop and the shop stamped a Randall logo on them.
Best,
Pretty good leap, Ron. All "possible"...but is it anymore or less possible than the simple expanation that...Just because a blade seems to have a "pre-62" grind...doesn't mean it was "completed" pre-'62...especially an oddball (fairly, compared to 6,7 or 8") 5 inch stiletto. Quite possible this knife was ordered during the Johnson era and an already forged blade, left in the bin (many times 50 were forged at a time) was pulled to fill the order??? Just sayin'. I don't remember the Randall shop doing a lot of sheath stamping??
Best, Capt. Chris
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 03:40 PM
Chris,
I'd say more probable. Of course you can't rule out a blade forged and ground that sat in the bin for a while, but at the same time you have to consider all the evidence at your disposal. Take a hard look at Stephen's 1-7 knife and sheath (Which has the horizontal Randall stamp) in the middle of the below photo:
That sheath has characteristics that no Johnson sheath I've ever seen has (The "countour" for example). The blade has a nice deep choil and the model is one that was very popular at that time of the Vietnam build up.
Also, didn't realize you were in the shop in ~ 1960.
I was speaking more of the fact, with regards to Burnie's knife and sheath combination, Ron. That sheath certainly has Johnson traits...and, just for the record, dude: We are both way..."WAY" too young to have been in the shop in 1960!!
Best, Capt. Chris
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 05:49 PM
Chris,
Could it be that Burnie's sheath has "Johnson traits" because Johnson copied Heiser (who in turn copied Moore)?
I could of been in the shop in '60, but I would have probably been picking my nose and getting in Bill Platts' way
You "still" pick your nose...and, no question about copy-cats. In all fairness to Maurice Johnson, he was a fine sheath maker and did a great job for the Randall shop. I was speaking more of the stamps, logos, model and blade length denotations, etc.
Burnie: Lost in all of this (well maybe not lost, but on the back burner)...NICE KNIFE!!
Best, Capt. Chris
Posted by: Aggiemike
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 07:40 PM
Great comparison! You convinced me at least until something better comes along.
Mike Webb
Posted by: Burnie
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 09:59 PM
Thanks Capt.
However I'm still confused
Is my sheath Heiser? Johnson?
Posted by: Aggiemike
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 10:18 PM
Yes!
Mike Webb
Posted by: Burnie
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 10:57 PM
Thanks Mike
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/25/09 11:50 PM
Ron, Congrats on your 1000th post!!
How about some more pancake comparisons.......
2-5 Randall Logo (Rons photo from above):
2-5 Heiser Logo:
8-4 Randall Logo:
8-4 Heiser Logo:
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 12:07 AM
And why isnt this 2-5 in a pancake sheath??
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 03:44 AM
Thanks, Stephen. Great job with those comparisons! I wish I could answer your question, but I have no clue.
Perhaps the fact that the belt loop is, indeed, a "loop", verses a slotted keeper. I was always under the impression that "pancake"-styled sheaths, even the old "Diver's" sheaths, were set apart from other Randall sheaths by the slotted belt keeper.
Am I wrong in this assumption?
Best, Capt. Chris
Posted by: crutchtip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 10:15 AM
Those grinds aren't really what I would consider "deep choils". Granted, they are a bit deeper than a couple of the other examples, but Bo did make a change in the blade grinds during that time period, and I highly doubt it was uniform and consistent at the onset of the change. Also, different guys will still show variations in individual blade grinds as they try and break ‘old habits’.
The last order of Heiser sheaths was delivered to the shop in 1962. Maurice Johnson obviously used Heisers as an example. I would guess he did his best to copy the sheaths as closely as he could. There weren't a huge amount of sewing machines designed for leather, so out of the pool of manufacturers available, it would not be uncommon for a leather guy to have the same machine as another leather guy. Johnson had two different machines he used and thus you would get some variations in stitching. Generally one did a straight stitch and the other at an angle.
Quote:
Tony / Perry / Rhett: Thanks. My pleasure.
Joe,
I appreciate your thoughts. I'll try to address them all:
Quote:
A couple of things come to mind here Ron. The leather on the unmarked sheath, particulalry the nape on the rear, is a bit different than on the RMK marked sheath, although it is not atypical of Johnson leather. It does not appear to be Heiser leather nor stitiching for that matter.
I've seen a large variation in the look and surface finish of the backs of both Heiser and Johnson sheaths. IMO there is no way you can attribute the back of the unmarked sheath to either provider in particular. The stitching (and all other attributes)of the unmarked sheath and the Heiser marked sheath are so similar that there is no doubt in my mind that the unmarked sheath is a Heiser.
Not so fast my friend! The nape I mentioned was not what I was basing my opinion on. The finished leather appears different, and Heiser leather is different than Johnson leather. You have it in hand so I can't say for sure.
Quote:
Also, the keeper snap location is different than on the Johnson. If you look at Heiser or Johnson brown button sheaths from the period, generally the keeper snap is located in the middle of the sheath as on the example pictured, not to the far side as on the unmarked sheath. The Heiser is odd in that it has the keeper in that same location as the unmarked sheath. I can see that throwing you a curve ball.
Again, I don't think you can attribute the set position of a diagonal keeper strap to either provider. I believe the reason for this is that the shop set the keeper and not the provider. In both Heiser and Johnson sheaths you see the set both in the middle and at the far side. Take a look at the group of sheaths below.
No, you can't base it on the set of the snap, but there was a period where the middle seemed to be the norm. The shop only sets the female portion of the snap on the keeper strap. The male portion is generally set at the sheath makers.
The 5 on the left are Johnsons. 3 with middle sets and 2 with far side sets. The one sheath on the right is a Heiser. It has a middle set which differs from the earlier Heiser marked sheath which is far side set. (If you look closely at the both the unmarked sheath and the earlier Heiser sheath which is far side set, you will see a "pin prick" start of middle set on both!).
What makes you think the Heiser with the metal snaps is earlier than the blonde one in the photo, which by the way is a good example that shows the difference in Heiser leather vs. Johnson leather.
Quote:
One thing that really stands out is the guy that stiched it must have been have way though his bottle of Beam when he made this sheath. This, is reminiscent of Stockman quality, or lack thereof.
Have you ever had a bad day at work, Joe
Not that bad
Quote:
I don't think it is unreasonable to say this could be an early Johnson prototype or 'one off' not unlike Stockman had been doing for some time. Based on the evidence we have seen over the years, I think it stands to reason and the consensus seems to be Maurice Johnson was involved at some level as early as 1960, but definitely by 1961.
As I stated above, I'm convinced that the unmarked sheath is a Heiser. I'm also not convinced that Johnson was involved earlier than 1962. It's more than OK that we have different opinions and that we have these discussions. That's the only way that we're going to get closer to the truth.
The unmarked sheath could be a Heiser. I am not saying it is impossible, but from what I see I don’t know if I would bet the farm on it. One day I will take a look at it. A point to ponder is that when Johnson came on board, he had issues with the brown buttons and thought they were inferior to the baby-dot snaps. Gaddis states that Heiser did not have the machine to set the baby dot snaps and continued to use the brown buttons. It is plausible that Heiser tried to accommodate Bo’s request for a better snap, or at least wanted to see what they had to offer in lieu of the brown button a la Johnson. Could have been samples, and that may explain why some may be unmarked. Heiser may not have known about Bo’s frugality and figured they would never be used. Who knows.
I don’t want to get into a debate about Johnson’s involvement with RMK. All I know is, if he got involved as late as stated, then that means he only used brown buttons for maybe only a few months according to Gaddis’ timeline. According to a source, it took Johnson 7-8 months to get up to full production so it doesn’t really jibe with the number of Johnson brown button sheaths that exist. This is partly based on Gaddis stating that “since late ’62 or early ’63, all Johnson-made Randall sheaths use these snaps” referencing baby-dot snaps. There are just too many examples of sheaths with the RMK logo that pre-date the 1962 timeline that are not Heisers.
Soemthing else we have to consider is there is no known evidence that states Heiser had an RMK stamp. There is no evidence anywhere that Heiser sent RMK unmarked sheaths in bulk. There is evidence however that RMK never stamped sheaths in the shop. Also remember, Johnson moved to Florida around either 1956 or 1958 IIRC. Either way, he was in the area for some time prior to his involvement with RMK. The Orlando area was not much back in those days, so I beleive being small town USA people kinda knew who was who when and where, particularly when Bo had been looking for a local sheathmaker at least since the beginning of Stockman's involvement in 1958-59.
I think the key questions are: When did Bo order the RMK sheath stamp? Who was it sent to and when? Directly to the shop? To Johnson? Heiser? Did he initially order more than one?
If the center sheath in the orignal photo looks like a Heiser, than the #1 sheath Rhett posted a photo of actually looks more like a Johnson, save for the snaps, a later one at that wouldn't you say? No one addressed that. Throws another wrinkle into the mix.
Best,
Posted by: 7033grip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 10:58 AM
Quote:
And why isnt this 2-5 in a pancake sheath??
In the old Heiser catalogues you could order either a pancake or a standard sheath. It was probably the same for the shop.
Dubie Baxter
Posted by: BOB_TEATES
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 11:05 AM
Good to see you back on the fourm some,crutchtip.Bob
Posted by: bart
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 11:10 AM
I think it's fairly obvious that Showtime also has a Randall sheath stamp, perhaps he made the sheaths in question. Bart RKS#132
Posted by: Rhett Stidham
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/26/09 05:54 PM
Great thread guys.
Rhett
Posted by: Aggiemike
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/27/09 02:39 PM
This would make a good topic at the next blade show.
Mike Webb
RKS 4071
Posted by: Stephen RKS 5536
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/27/09 08:07 PM
To me the "johnson look" comes from the angle or distinct turn of the stitching in the model 1 sheath about 2/3 of the way down the back of the sheath (sheath on the left below). The sheaths with the "heiser look" have more of a straight curve...
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 09/29/09 05:05 PM
Joe,
It
is good to see you posting again!
Blade grinds:
I think there are some generalized statements that can be made about choils during the decade of 1955-1965: ~ Mid 60's they were the shallowest in Randall history. Early 60's they were fairly deep, elongated and parallel to the plane of the blade. Late 50's they were deeper and shaped like a fish hook. Take a look at the choil on this 4-6 that just came up on e-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260483168442&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:ITWhere would you date that knife based on the blade grind? Also, take a look at the accompanying sheath: If that had a Heiser stamp on it and not a Randall stamp I don't think you'd think twice about accepting it as a Heiser.
Not so fast my friend! The nape I mentioned was not what I was basing my opinion on. The finished leather appears different, and Heiser leather is different than Johnson leather. You have it in hand so I can't say for sure Sooner or later I'll put both sheaths in your hands.
No, you can't base it on the set of the snap, but there was a period where the middle seemed to be the norm. The shop only sets the female portion of the snap on the keeper strap. The male portion is generally set at the sheath makers. 10-4. Thanks.
What makes you think the Heiser with the metal snaps is earlier than the blonde one in the photo, which by the way is a good example that shows the difference in Heiser leather vs. Johnson leather. I was referring to my two metal snap sheaths and not the Heiser on the far right with BB's.
Your last comments:
As we discussed on the phone, there is no way to rule out either scenario. I do agree with your key questions and I sure hope some day they get answered.
Best,
Posted by: crutchtip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 10/03/09 01:59 PM
I would never have a problem accepting a Heiser as a Hesier, particularly when it is a Heiser!! That 4-6 is on the cusp if you will. I will restate that the switch in blade grinds was not an immediate occurrence with some older blades still showing up, and some holdover of older style grinds from guys making the change. This is happening even though we see knives from 1963 with the newer style grind.
What makes this interesting is the sheath has the RMK logo and horizontal at that! This has always been attributed to the earliest of Johnson's sheaths. The first link below is another with what you would call a “Hieser looking’ sheath but with the vertical logo.
The second link is most definitely a Heiser, even if you couldn’t see the back of the sheath. It is obviously different than the 4-6 or the 1-7 “Johnson” sheaths. With those, there is some question, without seeing the back. So, as a rule if it has an RMK logo, to me it is a Johnson until someone can prove otherwise.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-7-spacer-Ran...id=p3286.c0.m14http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Randall-Knif...id=p3286.c0.m14
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 10/03/09 03:47 PM
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I will restate that the switch in blade grinds was not an immediate occurrence with some older blades still showing up, and some holdover of older style grinds from guys making the change. This is happening even though we see knives from 1963 with the newer style grind.
Agreed, Joe. My comment was a generalized statement about choil grinds.
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What makes this interesting is the sheath has the RMK logo and horizontal at that! This has always been attributed to the earliest of Johnson's sheaths .
Yeah, but that don't make it so
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The second link is most definitely a Heiser, even if you couldn’t see the back of the sheath. It is obviously different than the 4-6 or the 1-7 “Johnson” sheaths.
The reason it's so different is that the Heiser "look" changed over the years: The back went from smooth and hard to cornrow to suede looking. The horizontal keeper transitioned to diagonal. The stone pocket flap went from wide to narrow. That 2nd link 2-7 is probably no later than about 1955.
I have provenance that this one was bought in early '54:
IMO this one is late 50's / early 60's and similar to the sample that Bo gave to Maurice as a pattern.
As I mentioned before, Johnson became extremely good at duplicating Heiser sheaths in a relatively short period of time. In the early 60's you had Johnson sheaths looking like Heisers and Heisers looking like Johnsons. And I'll say this again: No one I know of can identify for certain those sheaths that appear to be from the late 50's and very early 60's that are not marked Heiser.
Since you have nothing else to do, I'm tasking you with answering your own questions: When did Bo order the RMK sheath stamp? Who was it sent to and when? Directly to the shop? To Johnson? Heiser? Did he initially order more than one? Please don't dally: Curious people want to know!
Posted by: crutchtip
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 10/03/09 06:22 PM
Horizontal RMK logo = early Johnson sheath. A beautiful equation.
Heiser may have changed a bit with the stone pouch flap and such, but still recognizable as a Heiser nonetheless. There is no dispute there, but the one's that seem to be in question, well, there is a question. There aren't many unmarked sheaths from the period you mention, not enough to make a claim as to who made them. I know some are for sure not Heiser and not Johnson. We are talking 1959-1960. Then there are one or two I have seen that I could make a case they might be real early Johnson samples. Stockman is out as from what I have seen, his sheaths are readily recognizable.
I will go back to the fact the Johnson was in the area in the late 50's after his retirement as a police officer. Perhaps one day there may be some light shed on this matter, but until that time, RMK marked sheaths will remain Johnson sheaths for my purposes.
Posted by: BoBlade
Re: "We ran out of WHAT again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" - 10/03/09 07:31 PM
It's actually more entertaining to disagree, Joe.
Take care,
PS: I'm right and your wrong!