Riveted Roughback Sheath: opinions welcome

Looking for feedback on a sheath that came in on a consignment knife. I'm thinking the throat rivets aren't original and I don't want to misrep anything when I list the pairing.

Your thoughts?

I know the back part of the snap showing through the RMK logo is not original, that's a given!

Seems like both sides of the throat of your sheath were reinforced using "return" stitching, so no real reason for the rivets to add more reinforcement. I believe the second picture shows properly riveted sheath.

Yes the rivets have been added. Sheath did not come that way.

Beautiful old Mod. 1 that someone screwed the sheath probably to deceive.

So I'm going to throw this out again for whatever it's worth, right or wrong.
I bought my first Randall Model 1-6 in 1967. Carbon, stag, and etched Michael R. Allen. In 1970, I flew to Tampa to see my brother,and took my knife to the Randall shop. Pete and I visited for a good while regarding western hunting, and then asked me if I would like rivets on my sheath. I said sure. He went in the back a a few minutes later, I had rivets on my brown button sheath. I sold that knife and sheath to Rhett in 1993 and tried to find it, but no luck. My blade was carbon, stag and etched Michael R. Allen, if you find it, let me know.

Pap

I am aware of that happening Pap but that still doesn’t mean that the sheath came from the Johnson Shop like that. Problem is there are those out there done to deceive and without proof that Pete did it well then it’s a bogus sheath.

It appears to be an HKL sheath, not a Johnson. That being said, the rivets have been there a long time it seems, and are period, so it is difficult to say 100%. It is most probably an owner modification.

The Randall shop set keeper snaps, they didn't make sheaths or add rivets I know of, and Mike's story of adding rivets is the first I have heard of. I wouldn't think the shop even had the tools to do so. In fact, I would bet money on it.

In any case, I don't think it really detracts from the package, and I wouldn't look at it as a negative.

What is odd, is the washer/nut for a knife apparently that late, or an HKL sheath with a knife that early. Depends on how you wanna look at it.

I am not an expert on the sheaths, but Pap’s story is interesting, and it reflects how things were sometimes done back in the day.

I remember going into the shop when Pete was behind the counter, and talking to him about a Model 4 with stag. He went into the back and came out with maybe a dozen pieces of stag and laid them on the counter. I narrowed it down to two pieces, had a hard time selecting, and then Pete and my wife preferred one of the two.

Having written up the order, Pete handed me the second piece of stag and told me to send it or bring it back for my next knife. I still have that piece of stag, never had it put on any of the knives bought since then…might dig it out.

While Pete’s friendliness and consideration were just good customer relations, it was one example of the kind of things that “might” have been done in the course of doing business.

Having Pap describe how Pete voluntarily installed rivets in his sheath AT THE SHOP AND NOT AT JOHNSON’S, if we came across HIS sheath we probably would not call it “phony.” Maybe it is “unusual” since we now have a first-hand account of Pete adding rivets to a sheath and we don’t “think” that he did this very often.

[Actually, this is interesting because it suggests that maybe Johnson did not do “all” the rivets…since Pete was set up to add them at the Randall shop. Maybe this can be clarified by DW or somebody else.]

The rivets in Miles’ sheath do look to be old…and without any other information we have no reason to think they are not as old as the sheath itself…and they appear to be professionally installed.

Maybe Pap can tell us whether the rivets in his sheath were installed to look like those on Miles’ sheath?

I think the real mystery is why was the gadget installed in the back of the belt loop? What was its purpose? It does appear to be “aftermarket” (not done by Johnson or RMK) since it is in the middle of the Randall trademark!

By the way, it is a nice knife and sheath.

Larry

Just a guess, the receiving end of a dot snap on a cartridge belt?

gonna address a couple of points Larry mentions.

First I want to reiterate, RMK was not and is not involved in sheath fabrication in any fashion. The only thing the shop did was set the keeper snap.

Providing a choice of stag used in knife fabrication is far removed from sheath modification. I think that Pete's "customer service" in Larry's case is a bit different than modifying something not produced in the shop.

The sheath in question is not a Johnson, it was made by a different company, prior to Maurice Johnson's relationship with the shop. Therefore, referencing Johnson as not installing the rivets is moot.

I do not believe Pete was "set up to add them (rivets)" at the shop. Not in the least bit. Again, it has repeatedly been confirmed that RMK was not and is not in the sheath fabrication or modification business. Could he have done so? According to Mike, Pete did on his sheath. I think the question is why would Pete even ask Mike if he wanted rivets? It would seem odd unless there was some conversation that Mike thought his potential use of the knife might require rivets. Regardless, why not just get him a period model "C" sheath for a model 1 from the bin and exchange sheaths? Why add throat rivets to a model "A" sheath?

It appears the female portion of a snap on the belt loop was added as a method of attachment it would seem. The fact that it probably is not original to the sheath might indicate the rivets are not original either.

The real mystery is the gap between the knife and the sheath age wise.

I don't see where Mike (Pappy) ever said he had rivets "added"...He just said: "I had rivets on my brown button sheath".
Just sayin', Capt. Chris

Unless I am waaaay off base, Mike seems to be inferring that Pete added rivets to his sheath, not supplying a completely different sheath. In the context of this post by Miles, and his questioning the originality of his sheath and the rivets, I believe the presumption is the Pete added rivets to Mike's sheath.

As a matter of fact, that sheath was dyed cordavan (sp) by a cobbler to match my pistol holster, so I know Pete didn't just give me a replacement sheath with rivets. I am just so mad at myself for selling it to Rhett, but what's done is done. Someone somewhere has that knife, sheath, and original catalog in an envelope from the Shop. I sold it to Rhett in 1993 and when I asked him about it, all he could fine is that he resold it in 1993, but no name.

Pap

Good point Joe. I took is as he "wound up" with a throat-riveted sheath.
Capt. Chris

Mike I know it was some time ago, but do you recall what the impetus was for adding the rivets? I don't see Pete blurting out "Hey you want rivets in this sheath?" out of the blue, so what was the precursor to him asking that? Did you express some type of need for rivets? I guess the question is if you recall why Pete added rivets? Also, what type of rivet?

Pete did indeed have the ability and the tools to add the rivets...he mentioned a few times that he did just that...loooong before the collectors prices arrived on the scene...

Crutch

I asked Pete to sharpen my Model 1, and he then asked if I wanted him to install rivets on my sheath. I said sure, he then went in the back on the bench and did both.
I never paid much attention to the rivets other than they were brass.
Pap

It’s my opinion that the knife is older and the rivets were added to “push” the sheath back-in-time.

Happy Easter all!

well there ya go, I lost the bet!

This doesn't have to do with rivets, but 2 years later, 1972(?) I went back to the shop and Pete added an additional keeper on my Model 8 sheath, which also had a the stone pouch, another rare item. I sold that to Rhett the same time as the Model 1,another stupid mistake. It has Mike Allen etched on that blade if anyone ever runs across it. I'll buy it back.

Pap

Steve, it does seem redundant to add rivets on top of "return" stitching, but apparently they did it, as seen on the #15 Tenite in the other thread.

For reference.

I've seen quite a few riveted sheaths without the "return" stitching and (until now) believed that rivets in addition to "return" stitching were an indication that someone was trying to increase the value of the sheath.

Interesting to see rivets on a sheath with return / reinforced stitching. Either the tenite sheath has rivets added "probably to deceive" or "to make it look older", or we've just been introduced to something that disclaims statements previously made in this thread.

If the rivets in the tenite sheath are believed to be legit and original, then rivets in some other sheaths with return stitching could be legit and original.

Thanks TAH for the post above.

ps. the model 1-7 is for sale, email if you have any interest in buying it.

Miles,

I have no idea if the rivets in the Tenite sheath are original. It just caught my attention.

Here's another one that was on Steve's website just for reference.

That is generally true, but is maybe a decade later than the knives being discussed here, and all involving Maurice Johnson sheaths. Not Heiser/HKL sheaths. Generally, Heiser/HKL sheaths have a return stitch on model "A" and "B" sheaths. Mod "C" some do, but not all.

Here is an example of rivets added:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vietnam-Period-...E/351772337770?

Thanks, Joe.
Over 50 years of buying & trading Randalls, and I learn more about them every day!

Is it "only me" that notices (blatantly) that the #15, green tenite, pictured above from the "other" thread..."DOESN'T REMOTELY FIT" the sheath? Talk about a mis-match!
Just sayin', Capt. Chris

an addendum to my previous post: I do not recall seeing a riveted Heiser/HKL sheath that had a back stitch at the top of the belt loop.