Pre War Fighter??

It has been a good month for great old Randalls. The two Burnie just posted are world class! I am posting these pictures for forum member "bedink". I am sure he will add to the story.

It's an interesting piece. It has the spacers of a pre-war Randall, but the hilt looks more like something you would see on a post war fighters.

One other thing that I mentioned to Dorsky this week. Look at the block letter initials on the sheath. They are very much like the initials on the Zach and my knife. This adds to the idea the Bo was doing this in the shop...

Now that's also an awesome find......:)

War time for sure. Hard to say for sure exactly when, but I would guess late 1942 and possibly into early1943

All I can say is WOW! They just keep coming every day this week. Another awesome find. Would that be a Moore sheath?

The FGs are also interesting. they run all the way up to the top of the handle. The modern (and most vintage) knives have them on the bottom and only part way up the side.
Awesome for sure.

Looking forward to hearing "the rest of the story" on this one. People talk about "Grail" knives. This one would definitely be mine. The classic Scagel style of the blade and spacers with the stag handle is just incredible.

Looks to be a tiny "step" in the choil, like on the Zach brothers.

Mitchell, my photography is horrible with my crappy cell phone, and all of the pics are upside down here for some reason, but if you look really close, you may be able to make out a knife in my pics! lol

Nearly a R/W/B suggestion on either end of the spacer stack although close-ups ruin that idea. Beautiful fighting Scagel hunter, except the hilt, which seems styled as an afterthought, but strong and not merely decorative.

I have already forwarded these photos to friends whose main reply seems to be as mine. "GASP".

It also puts paid to my griping about new hilts with flat front faces not being authentic to earliest Randalls.

Bill,

I don't think that knife is as old as John Cheek thinks it is. Ron and Joe are better on the prewar pieces than me, but that's my 2 cents.

I'm on the fence about it myself. I was thinking around 40/41... But I don't question the man.

My actual impression is of a requested later knife "made the way you used to make them, Bo."

That, or there was a Behring around then, too.

Tune,

John's knife has a stamp, which puts it post August 1939.I honestly don't know how it's possible to pin it down any closer than roughly 1940- 1942:


I agree with Joe about the timeframe of Bedink's knife:



Certainly not much older than that primarily because of the hilt which is not oval with a flat face.

Thanks Ron

I have had John's knife in my hand several times but it has been a few years. Ron is correct that it is probably from the pre-war period but possibly could be from a bit later also considering 8 December 1941 when the US declared war on Japan. I don't think Bo dropped his fancy spacer "Hunter" like a hot potato and was making them well into 1942 anyway. There were still requests for those knives after the war started and my guess is he accommodated those wanting one, at least initially. Or he could have just made up stock for Brown's Men's Store in Orlando, Brook's Brothers in New York, or VL & A in Chicago

You will note that on that particular knife it doesn't have the fanciest of spacer arrangements (a la Scagel) as we have seen on other earlier examples. It does appear to be white tail though, which would indicate early.

Joe,

Perhaps it is best to define what a Randall collector should call the "pre-war period". Given that we're talking Randalls, the "war period" begins with Bo's involvement with the Zacharias fighter on 06/15/1942. That knife and sheath are hard data points (i.e. evidence).



Note that by this time Clarence's sheath design had changed from the "pancake" style.......



.......to the more familiar "Model A" style which had the option of a stone pocket from May of 1940 (Gaddis pg 56). John's sheath is clearly a pancake style, so assuming the sheath is original to the knife, the knife is no later than 1940.

A closer look at the spacers on John's knife reveals that indeed this is a "fancy" stack. Not as fancy as those from '37 or '38, but clearly typical of the few knives we've seen from late '39 through early 1940:



I count maybe 10-12 and I may be missing a few due to the lack of photo clarity. I put my early Hunter in the same timeframe and it has roughly the same stack count:



You can "guess" that Bo had inquiries for fancy spacer type knives after the war started and he accommodated them, but there's no evidence (circumstantial or otherwise) to back this up. Gaddis mentions on page 71 that there were still a few requests for hunting knives after he started making fighting knives, but that these were turned down "because they didn't fit into the fabrication techniques developed for the leather handled Fighter and Stiletto".

Perhaps, but the blade grind appears a bit later than that when compared to those pictured in photo 43 in Gaddis of 1940 knives. That being said, the "fancy" spacer arrangements are a variable in my eyes. You recall the Henckles carver I sold you had around 18 spacers to include copper and brass, "fancier" than both yours and John's knives. Not as large in diameter as a knife with a hilt would have, but the quantity was there. So again, it is a variable to me, as are allot of things RMK.

Not sure how you get no later than 1940. Using the 16 June 1942 as the pre-post war line, that sheath could easily have been made until mid-1942. Unless I am misunderstanding your line of thinking, but it appears you are saying the Zach fighter was the impetus for the "A" style sheath? So from 1940 until mid 1942, what style of sheath did RMK's come in if not pancake style?

Brian's knife is post 16 June 1942 and it is in a pancake style sheath, so I don't think it is accurate to say all knives during that period were delivered in "A" style sheaths. Could have just been old habits for Moore when making the sheath for Brian's knife based on blade design. Who knows.

How is John's blade grind " a bit later" from the third knife from the bottom on page 50 / photo 43? (Can't wait for this one )

How can anyone argue that fancy spacer stacks are not variable. One only has to look at photo 41 page 44 in Gaddis book how they were reduced in stack count over time. The point being that John's stack does not preclude it from being '39 or '40 and more importantly seems to be typical of this period.

I get no later than mid 1940 because of the stone pocket being an option from that time. I am not saying that the Zach fighter was the impetus for the "A style" sheath. Have you ever seen a stone pocket on a Moore pancake sheath?

10-4 on Brian's sheath.

John's knife has little to no top bevel as does the knife you describe - third from the bottom - as I see it. In fact, all of the knives pictured seem to have some type of top bevel grind. John's knife doesn't look as "Scagelesque" ( for lack of a better term) as some of those earlier ones. we know blade grinds were all over the place, but those in the photo seem pretty consistent with the presence of top bevel grinds.

Not saying it couldn't be 39-40. Also not saying it couldn't be 41-42 either.

How does the stone pouch option make the knife 1940? You answer you own question by asking has anyone seen a pancake sheath with a stone pouch. I don't recall seeing one. Brian's knife is clearly late 1942 at the earliest and it has no stone pouch.



I do believe the Zach fighter was the impetus for the new style sheath as shown above. It is the first I have ever seen. Here is another without a stone pouch as was the original Zach sheath so it was not a given the fighters had stone pouches. This one is obviously later than Tune's knife, but not by much. A month or two?

Joe,

I don't know if you realize this or not, but you just agreed with me and debunked your own "the blade grind on John's knife) appears a bit later than that when compared to those pictured in photo 43 in Gaddis of 1940" when you say "John's knife has little to no top bevel as does the knife you describe - third from the bottom - as I see it".

If (1) Stone pouches were an option as of May, 1940 and (2) No one has seen a pancake sheath with one, a reasonable conclusion can be drawn that from 5/40 on the sheaths were "A Style".

I am going to revise my opinion of Brian's knife because of the sheath: I now think it's earlier than mid 40 and that the hilt was an exception to the oval / flat face norm at the time. Possibly because the top quillion needed to be high enough to ward off opposing knife blows and an oval hilt would be way too massive! An oval hilt that big would also push the knife away from the sheath way too far. I love these back and forth exchanges with you because it makes me think!

Some fighters did not have a stone pocket simply because it would hang up on other gear or obsticals. That was the buyers prerogative then as it is now. We've seen it many times over in sheaths from the VN war.

Waaa? No, I said the knives in the photo show distinct top bevel grinds whereas John's does not. I will repeat, blade grinds could be all over the place, all I am saying is there is no way to say that knife is unequivocally a 1939, 1940, 1941, or 1942 knife. Not to me, although I lean towards the later years of the spread. I will look at it again at some point. I think the only thing we know for sure is it wasn't made in 1938 and probably not 1939 since Bo received the stamp in the last quarter of that year. Prior to that any RMK logo was hand etched.

"A" style sheaths were a means of construction, different than the pancake style common for the period from many makers, and no a reasonable conclusion cannot be made that the construction of sheaths changed for some reason yet unknown or upon the offer of a stone pouch option. I think that is what you are saying, that with the offer of the stone pouch option, Moore completely changed his sheath offerings? I have never seen one and don't know anyone that has prior to the Zach fighter.

I believe the sheath construction changed when the fighter came about as shown in the photos of the original Zacharias fighter. The first example of an "A" style sheath I know of. Something a bit more "robust" than the pancake style.

The Zacharias fighter was the FIRST fighter of any type made according to Gaddis. Bo used hunter style blades in late '42 to make a handful of "Commando"models which all but subsided by early 1943. Consider he made 28 knives including the Zacharias knife and one dated 7 January 1943, approximately 6 months.

You can see my photos above of the original Zach and the later '42 early '43 knife that also shows the evolution of the blade grind, hilt shape, and handle. Brian's knife was made during this period. It has a slender blade and therefore stands to reason it would be offered in a pancake style sheath that hunter models came in, because that is what his blade is.

Here is a photo of what I would say is an mid 43 Commando and two more Zach evolution fighters from late '42 to early '43. Again, here they show the evolution of the hilt, blade grind, and handle. Also note that the keeper strap for the bottom knife has been relocated from it's original location or was in fact punched for the rivet by Moore and moved upon final assembly. This shows that the problem with the high keeper may have been addressed fairly early on if not by Moore then by an owner of the knife.

Joe,

The lighting in that photo is very poor, casting reflections and shadows that obscure the grind lines. I see top bevels on some but not others. As well, John's knife is missing some metal and there are no distinct grind lines at all. I never said you could unequivocally say a knife is from a given year based on grind lines. It was you who said John's knife appeared to be a bit later than the knives in that photo. What about the top bevel on Brian's knife:

Does this align it with the 1940 knives?

Yes, I'm saying I think the sheath construction changed with the offering of a stone pocket. Again, have you ever seen a pancake sheath with a stone pocket? No? Neither has anyone else! What type of sheath construction did those sheaths with a stone pocket have that were made between May of 1940 and 6/15/42?

Bo was 84 when Bob's book was published. In the book's preface on page X, Bob states "As I uncovered more original records with each visit, it became apparent that some of the often told stories about Bo's knives didn't match with what he had recorded at the time. Bo and I discussed this discrepancy on two or three occasions and always came to the same conclusion: we would consider what he had recorded at the time that it happened to be factual, not what he remember 40 years later"! Bottom line is that Bo's memory at the time the book was written was suspect. An event that should have stuck in his mind was the re-handle of his first knife, and that went missing. It would have been just as easy to forget one customer's request for a knife with a special guard. In 1940 or 1941, Bo had no idea how the grind on a fighting knife should differ from a hunting knife. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if Brian's knife had a sharpened clip. You state unequivocally that "Brian's knife was made during this period (Late '42 / early '43). This statement flies in the face of your earlier claim. You're contradicting yourself here, Joe.

In any event, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours.

Ron -

Not really sure where you are going with this to be honest. It is ok to have different opinions, but reaching with things like "one customer's request for a knife with a special guard", apparently according to your timeline prior even to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and "I'm saying I think the sheath construction changed with the offering of a stone pocket", both points apparently to suit your explanation of what is a knife described clearly in Gaddis as being made most probably in the latter half of 1942 being made in 1940.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the sheath style changed along with the style and purpose of the knife being made? Just saying.

In any case, I have examined John's knife several times and don't argue it is "pre war" for the most part. Could it be from 1942? Possibly, but most likely it is a bit earlier.

I only made the statement relative to the photo of the 1940 knives in Gaddis because I saw a bit of change in the blade grind with the lack of a top bevel compared to those in the photo. I will reiterate again because it apparently is not getting through, blade grinds as you know were not real consistent for the most part during the early years so it is difficult to pin down. Just an observation on my part. That's all.

Brian's knife obviously has an exaggerated top bevel with the intent of it being a fighting knife. To be sharpened, which it is, it would almost necessitate that type of bevel. All "Commando" type knives are like this.

You and I will disagree on the sheath construction at this point until a pre-war knife in what we are calling an "A" sheath shows up with a field knife blade in it. The earliest one I have seen is the Zach sheath with NO stone pouch. I have given ample examples of the earliest Moore "A" sheaths known and all have fighting knives in them. Brian's knife is the only fighter I have seen in a Moore pancake style.

I don't know where I am contradicting myself but I guess you see it somewhere. As far as we know the impetus for Bo to make a fighting knife, any fighting knife, came in June 1942 when Lt. Zacharias came into the shop. Bo experimented during the latter half of 1942 with other blade styles i.e. Brian's knife, but by the time 1943 rolled around, it was pretty much a done deal. Remember, only 28 knives made during that first 6 month period. Although Bo did make a few "custom" order knives like Commando models later in the war, they were few and far between. Heck, he didn't even have one in the museum and made one post war with a peened tang to fill the void!

I am not gonna debate Bo's memory, what was or was not the topic of conversation between Gaddis and Bo, or what was deemed more important than something else when Gaddis had discussions with Bo about what information was to be included in his book. Writer's privilege.

I have really enjoyed this thread folks, and I mean that. When I posted the knife, I opened with the conundrum that it presented.

It has a spacer stack that is more consistent with pre-war knives and a hilt that is more consistent with 1943 and later knives. That remains true.

The only way to shed more light would be Bo's original journals and see an entry with a similar description to a man with the initials J.M.G.

Brian, I hope you are coming to Blade this year. I would love to see the knife in person.

Joe,

We could go back and forth on these points ad nauseam. We've beat things to death as usual. I'm going to leave this topic with a hoped for enlightenment in response to your statement:







Your denial of facts is a hurdle I face every time we have a disagreement over anything. Enough said on my part.

Dude, WTF?

What are you talking about Ron? Seriously? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

That John's knife was not make within that 3-4 year span?

That Brian's knife was not made in the latter half of 1942?


What and whose "facts" am I in denial about?

Joe,

I agree with you that blade grinds could be all over the place during those early years, yet you have somehow unequivocally pinned down Brian's knife grind to "late '42 or early '43"!~ How is that possible? Why couldn't the grind be 1940 or 1941?

Guys, I encourage you to pull on this thread as long as you like....

BUT.....be nice. Period.

Got it, Tune!

Well stated Tune. Good information included in here can get lost and, in some cases not even read by forum members, when the "talk/opinions" turn into "debates"...nice or not.
Best, Capt. Chris

He didn't make fighters then Ron. He made what was in his catalog, field knives, carvers, and handled Case, Henckles, and Northampton factory blades which amounted to over half of his total production through his first three years in 'business". Fighting knives weren't even on the radar yet.

Quoting Gaddis:

"During the last half of 1942 and into the first couple of months of 1943 Bo experimented with a few combat knife designs beside the Zacharias-Randall style. At fist some men had him modify his catalog 6 and 7 hunters for combat duty. This consisted of sharpening the blade on the top edge and using a double hilt. The handles were of stag but usually not crowns. He adopted the term "Commando" to denote this earliest of his double -hilted combat knives.

The Randall Commando knife went on to become a distinct design style, which had a very limited popularity thorough out 1943. This WW II knife can best be described as having an upward -curved blade, similar to the modern Model 4 Big Game and Skinner, went the back of the blade being sharpened over halfway to the double hilt. It was great for slashing but no good at thrusting or for general-purpose duties.

Bo's Journal also contains a couple of other styles from this early WWII period. These short-lived designs are now seen as being part of the transition from the original Zacharias-Randall to the Fighter of WWII and later. The were made in very limited numbers and had been phased out by the end of February 1943. The majority of this design experimentation happened in the last quarter of 1942, commencing shortly after Bo's release fro CAP duties. From this time on, the fabrication of combat-type knives accounted for at least 95 percent of the efforts expended at Randall Made Knives."



The description of a modified catalog hunter blade in the first paragraph sounds eerily like Brian's knife. I believe what is said in the passage above puts this issue to rest.

Not by any stretch, Joe! I'm quoting Gaddis as well:

Pg 57: His willingness to custom-make a knife to someone's expectations was also noted: Over the next 40 odd years, this offer was ably transformed into many hundreds of fine knives, each individually crafted to the customer's requirements"

Also, pg 58: Prior to WWII, the sheath was optional; the first catalog (November 1940) noted three types: 1) Best sheath with hidden belt loop (Type A) 2)Cheaper sheath with ordinary type loop (Pancake style) 3) Special sheath with hone pocket (Type A with stone pocket).

I had never noticed it in the catalog, but it's sure there. I have never seen a stone pouch on sheath that old and would have questioned it's age.....

Here is the 1940 catalog.

http://www.randallmadeknife.com/1939/

Having re-read this thread, it's interesting to me how the timeframe for the fighting knife development correlates with other events of the time. Lt. Zacharias (according to Gaddis) was in the 351st Searchlight Bn. This type of unit supported anti-aircraft batteries protecting the coast. The transition period from "Zach" style fighters to what we call "WW2 fighters" occurs when the 351st Bn. deployed. The entry of Jan 06, 1943, is very possibly the last day of the 351st Battalions' stay in Florida, as they sail out of the New York port of Embarkation on the 15th of Jan. 1943. If Bo had devoted much time to the Zach fighters for this unit, a lull and perhaps a chance for refinements came immediately after their departure.

I don't believe that is the case wally, depending on what we call a Zacharias fighter.

I know of two in existence, the original Zach and Tune's knife. I don't think Bo made more than a handful of this style as it was not practical for utilitarian use with the finger grips on "top" of the handle and the odd hilt.

I believe he moved to a more "traditional" style rather quickly and most definitely with the introduction of leather handles in November of 1942. All of the earliest knives other than the two mentioned that I know of are leather with finger grips. I believe he made the majority of the 28 knives during this period after the introduction of leather.

Brian's knife that was mentioned I believe was made in the latter part of 1942.

Safe to say, Tunes knife came after Lt. Zacharias', and the Lt's last requested knife is completed 6 Jan 1943 ( As I interpret Gaddis), that's what made me think the 6 month time frame between the total of 4 ordered was devoted to that design, of course, as the production of these 4 knives may have occurred over the course of considerably less time, changes could come about simultaneously. Establishing the link between Tunes knife, and the Zacharias, could be the key factor in nailing this down, I suppose

The hilt (quillion?), is, I believe shaped in its "teardrop" fashion, to facilitate the fighting grip, with forefinger over the hilt. We do know for a fact that Lt. Zacharias' last journal entry came one week before his Battalion set sail, and it's easy to think all of the Lt's orders would be delivered appearing similar to each other. Certainly an important time in the development of the APFK, with room for much more learning, investigating, and hopefully, more discovery.

What I am saying is I do not believe the four knives Zacharias ordered were the same style of knife. As I stated with leather eliminating the use of stag for all practical purposes in November 1942, it is reasonable to presume that maybe his third knife and certainly his fourth was markedly different than his first.

This is a similar knife to the 28th knife made with a journal entry of 7 January 1942. Not even close to the Zach

Very intresting, assuming you are correct, Mitchells' knife is the second one, of two. I recall something in Gaddis' book about the difficulty WDR had transitioning to leather, having to acquire a specific tool to punch the circles, then using a chisel to cut the center out to accommodate the tang.

It is the second known to exist, not the second one made. We don't know. The design really wasn't that practical.

Leather may have taken a bit of work but it was a much more suitable handle material.