Westinghouse Micarta (Starting with Ivorite)

Hello All , I am Really glad to be here & I think it's way overdue. I'm sure I know some of You & will be Glad to meet more of You. One of the main reasons for joining is to help educate/enlighten on the misunderstood Recipes and characteristics of W~house M. Those who know Me that if on the phone , I can get us both in trouble for making it a Very long conversation, my Gal tells me to keep it shorter

Lets Start with Vintage Westinghouse Ivorite (Paper based M.)
That I know of the 60's and 70's paper (which i have in 1/4" & 3/8") was not the later Recipe as these 3/8" that i will show in Pic. This Ivorite (the very sought after since) was produced probably right around 1980 to 95 from Westinghouse and Very similar from Intl. Paper from 1995 (when they purchased the Micarta Division fr: W-H. (more on I-Paper later posting) there's Clarification tremendously needed on I-P's wonderful Micarta as well. In a Nutshell The 60's - 70 (What's called Ivorite was in fact White Paper) Ages more Caramelish like on some of the Older Mr. Bowles scrim knives. the Later Ivorite (Ivory Paper)Recipe I mentioned 1980-ish to 95 or later, will be Ivory inside and Age to the Lemony Yellow 80ish ~ 95' at least. It is NOT the 1st. Old Yellar" much to the Contrary - the 1st. was on Airplane Props in the 40's wwII era & it was Paper (A~G).So Actually Micarta was made for Comm./Industrial purposes and accidentally this Recipe became a Decorative/Cosmetic (Highly sought) Later. Then the Industrials , such as Insulation & Gears, etc. came. Later the Pure Decoratives such as Ivorite (Not White Paper but Ivorite, as Ant. Gold/ Yellow) were evolving & that, they Did. I'll also show the Ivory Linen in Pic as well. A Decorative Pressed on 36" Square Press Only. I've written articles on the subject of Westinghouse for a Knife Newsletter. I'll stop here for Now, but Glad to be here amongst You folks. Not sure if I can upload Pics.
Thanks , Ken D.

Is this the same Kenstix from Downey, CA that sells "Westinghouse Micarta" on Ebay?

If so, I purchased some of your "yellow" micarta. I remember the photos on Ebay showing an absolutely beautiful piece of micarta (almost white in appearance....as with the "real" Westinghouse Old Yellow when it was brand new). Unfortunately, the stuff I purchased started to turn cat-crap brown within days--absolute junk.

The fellow on Ebay misrepresented the material in the item description and on the telephone. But, I was the fool. Caveat Emptor!

If it was purchased from me , It was Absolutely Not misrepresented. Some Vintage Ant. Ivory or Old Brown Linens, (which I do still sell) can Age pretty Rapidly. Maybe You thought You were buying Antique Gold Micarta. Myself, I would Never Intentionally Sell a Non-Decorative such as those 2 Recipes as A-Gold. Education is the Key, Ken

Case in point (item details/photos speak volumes):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/70s-Old-Brown-We...=item460c500d58

"Same material used on Vietnam Era Randalls"........highly unlikely.

Oh, it was clearly sold as being "yellow"......"brown" never entered the equation.....EVER.

Best wishes to you sir....I've said my peace.

Well Doug , maybe it sounds "Highly Unlikely" but it's a Fact & the Sheet/Block that comes out of the Bins I dig through, have been sitting in there for 30 - 40 years and I literally Wash them off with Dishsoap to get the engrained Dust + Dirt off of them. I've only had 1 source ever for these 2 recipes. The only highly unlikely thing about it was ending up with that source. All one has to do is Look through My Feedback and Verify All the Randall people and Custom builders that Put a Stamp on the Material ~ It Speaks for itself. We coordinate many Rare & Beautiful Randall builds continuously with Great success. Ken

Hi Ken,
Glade to see you here.
But ... I have to tell you, I bought this from you a while ago ... can't find a record ...
maybe 2010??
Anyway ... I sent it to a Randall Dealer who has been in the Randall "world" for a long time. He's trustworthy and knows
his stuff. He recommended that I not use this for a handle as it was inferior and would change colors over time.
Has this happened to others?

Would you be able to get me a block of the old brown canvas micarta from the Vietnam era 14s?

What would the cost be? I want to use it for a 14 build.

Ben, I got a block from Ken about a year ago for a 14 build it is a perfect match to some period brown micarta knives I own. He sent me some small pices that I used to compare with some real 1960 brown micarta ...chose one ...he cut to RMK specks and the knife built looks right out of the 60s Very happy

Hi Tony , Good to see You here too. I usually desribe the Aging on Antique Ivory & Brown Micarta(It Ages Brown- doesn't start out that way & never Did . Sometimes both of these can start out yellow or Natural inside)There are some Papers & Tan Linens that are Pressed for those Colors, but the old Vintage Aged Brown Ain't one of em' . I Assure You ANY Micarta I sell is Expensive, Bleached linen/cotton, and Micarta Brand Usually W-house or I-P and IS what I Say it is . I've seen the people at e_ _ y that dont Know, Have or know Anything about Micarta . There is Nothing INFERIOR about My Stock unless somebody is Expecting Antique Gold or Ivoritr from these 2 batches. I dont sell the Brand that starts with an 'N' & never have. Wish people would Ask questions before they buy like Leatherman did, Rather than come at me with half baked Information. I cut Blanks (with NO complaints - but praise) for the Kind of Randall Customers That have the Maximum of builds put in from the from All the Dealers All Year/Every Year. I hate to mention this here but I'm told I know more about MICARTA recipes than Any Dealer (and stay alive from being TRUSTWORTHY), sorry. I can tell You about the Insulator Handle stuff (Molded Linen) Any Paper or Linen Recipe or Color Recipe We use on Handles (Randalls & Customs ) of ANY Vintage Westinghouse or Intl. Paper Recipe whether Decorative or Not. I Highly Doubt I can learn Anything about Westinghouse Micarta here , I've learned most of it from Professional Micarta dealers who know hardly ANYTHING about our world. I came here to Educate mainly. Asbestos is a whole nother world of misunderstanding as is sometimes shown in the Cue & Knife world. Epoxies were used By WH & IP in resins such as My Ivory/white linens that preserves just as Nicely. Kenstix

Hi Ben and Yes I have a few Blocks of that linen with a Slightly larger weave than the A-Ivory but Smaller than Canvas (Running low though, on it) I can do Slotted or CDT Blank Blocks. PM me if You'd like , trying to upload a pic of a couple Randalls with my Linen. This material will Age.
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Hey Griff - LTNS (or hear I figured You'd have that #14 back by now , could You send me a Pic ? What's funny is - I think we did Your Slot in a Vintage 1" W~H Maroon block but it's more subtle than any new-school Maroon material. I'm super glad it came out Nice.

Thanks Griff & Ben - Ken

Ok Ken,
Just to be clear, the photos I posted are of Micarta I bought from you. Yes?
I say yes, BTW.
I don't think the person who told me not to use it is wrong.
That's that, I guess.

The 2 Randalls Above are the same material, Guess they look super Krappy Huh ?.

No, they look fine.
But they're not yellow.

They're Ant. Ivory & the Blocks looked the same when i worked Them up ~ ANTIQUE GOLD STAYS COMPLETELY YELLOW. I'm Done here for Tonite - My heads throbbing from bouncing it on the Cement.

Ok.
But just so I undeRstand, and I DO want to understand.
If it's the same material as the block I posted ... which is yellow in color,
then it does get darker. Yes?

Antique Ivory Batches aren't as predictable on the Vintage stock. Antique gold is pretty predictable because of the resin. they both can start out Yellow, Ken

Yes, that stuff turns a real crappy butterscotch color......just as I remember. Thanks for showing that Ken. Just imagine purchasing a block of that "stuff" and being told (via the description and telephone) that it would be YELLOW. NO mention of Brown/Butterscotch that it would turn into within days of purchase. It was like watching mold grow on cheese.

Tony....I purchased from the same guy you did (I can tell from the photos you posted). Was also told by a very well respected, long-time Randall dealer that it was bad stuff. Ken, are you the guy? Inquiring minds want to know.

By the way, I received a PM from another gentleman who has had the same experience with this stuff. Caveat Emptor!!!!!

Ken, make sure you pay the forums the standard fee for selling your material.....or are you just "educating" some of us lunkheads?

Ok.
I understand ... the difference between Antique Ivory and Antique Gold.
Sorry for all the questions. That's how ya learn!
Thanks Ken.
Have a good night.
Tony

Hell I still don't get the difference, I guess ones legit and ones not! (The one that turns isn't legit?) right Tony?

I'm after legit old stock or perfect reproduction brown canvas that is a greenish brown color on the finished knives.

No problem Tony , I hope i was of some Service .

Ben , There's no such thing as "Not Legit Vintage Micarta" if it was bleached Linen From W-House or I-P. The "reproduction' Your referring to, is readily Available but will NEVER look like the Old Brown or Nat Stock, the chemical restrictions have changed Everything. Even the Epoxy Resins on Super fine weave G-11's Arent like they were.
Goodnight Ya'll

Ben....maybe Ken will be kind enough to post some photos of the "SAME MATERIAL USED ON "VIETNAM ERA" RANDALLS". Plenty of respected experts here who can verify for you......and I'd highly recommend before dropping any coin.

Here U go , maybe Your (respected experts) are savvy enuf to Identify this Block like I Cut from.

Clear as mud.

Ken--is this your auction for the real stuff?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/70s-Old-Brown-We...=item460c500d58

Here's some more imitation Micarta, Please feel free to show Pics to Any experts You wish & I'm anxious to see if You report Ignorance or true Expertise on Micarta, I Really cant wait. Promise me if they put a Stamp on it , you'll finally sthu

So, just to be clear.....is that a photo of "THE SAME MATERIAL USED ON "VIETNAM ERA" RANDALLS"? The answer to that, I'm sure, will assist in a fair evaluation.

Well, is it your auction Ken or would you feel better if I stop asking that question?

I don't think that stuff is the real brown as its linen and not canvas plus the color is wrong.

Someone would have to know how the old stuff was made or the supplier.

I do not know if Randall makes their own micarta in house or what.

Busse Combat does make theirs in house. I believe they frequently experiment around with colors since they have the snakeskin and tiger hide etc.

Jerry Busse is extremely knowledgable about Micarta and other phenolic resins.

Uh huh . .. .. .. .. ..

ok , better bring in the "Experts" for this one ~ it may be a real Stumper. Who the made Micarta on 3 of my knives & when ? What Recipes are They ? Especially the bottom Rt.

Kenstix...... just my Hillbilly logic at work here, but your first post indicated that you came here to share your knowledge and experience on the subtleties of micarta.

Having watched the exchange in this thread you seem more interested in challenging the "experts".

I am guessing this thread didn't pan out as you first envisioned. I doubt the dialogue will encourage anyone here to buy your products. Doug and Tony are held in very high regard here..... they are long time forum members, and both have earned our support and respect.

So, back to your first post..... can you share and add to the collective knowledge?

Thanks for stepping in, Mitchell.

Seems like it was getting a little heated in the conversation back and forth.

It is gettin' a might touchy in between posts.

Here are a couple of photos of some of the brown micarta as used by Randall. You can also find some in the photo archives and an article or two in the Randall Collector archives here:

www.rmkcollector.com

Crutchtip, Thanks for posting th e piece of micarta that I bought from Ken is quite similar to the number 1 posted here, I used it to build a 14. Regards

Hi Folks ~ Tubefink I didn't come here to Peddle micarta , I do fine in that respect already. I came here for what I stated but, non experts keep coming at me not really allowing that vibe. Any real Experts I have a relationship with in real knife dealings (mostly Randalls) see eye to eye on Everything - All the time. They know what I have (although nobody's seen more that maybe 15 percent of My W-H Micarta. Boardrider knows what he's looking at. They (WH) had to quit using Asbestos in 79 & by early 80's swithched to some epoxies for the decoratives instead. The thing is Alot of people only think they Pressed Ivorite, A-gold & What AGES to brown 'old Brown'(Nat/Bleached) Phenolic a non Decorative. Any Vintage Micarta with Blackline Always Indicates westinghouse (To My knowledge)unless I-P carried the same thing thru , but i've never known that to be true. On the A-ivory & Old Brown the Blacklines were put in it to see from forklifts afar way up on shelves for Identification purposes in Industry. This Pic that i'll upload of Tan aged Paper in 1" (70's no Asbestos) it, was pressed for decorative visual purposes. i'll go ahead & upload the Ivory blackLine (early 80's - for learning & reference) .I probably have 50 different Recipes of Westinghouse Micarta , About a Half ton left. Not much Ivorite (No Block Stock) or A-gold left. Ken

To follow up on Crutch...this is the only brown micarta I have to post up
:-)Rocky

Here's a #15 I own with Brown Micarta. Newer. Gary Randall told me it is customer supplied.

Rocky/Tony - those are some "sharp" looking knives! I really like the look of the brown micarta. Nice seasonal pic you have there Tony!

Let's keep the brown micarta coming..... this one is one of my favorites (aren't they all?).

Brown micarta, brown button sheath, and a lugged nickel silver hilt. Lugged NS was never offered as an option, but.....like all Randall rules, there are exceptions.

Another odd feature of this package is the stitching on the sheath. Johnsons of this ere were call "tight stitched"....this knife has noticeably wider stitch spacing than most in this period.

Truly.... Randall geek sh!t.....

Sweet #1 Tubefink ! But All nice Randalls.

The 2 #1's above look like the Fine weave Linen and the others look like larger weave Cotton. Also You can notice Color Variations in the same Recipes (Diff. Lot/Batches) because only the intended Decorative recipes such as Ivorite, A-Gold, Wh./Iv Linen and so forth, Had the more Chemically Controlled Resin formulas (although some Varied to some point ~ usually not as dramatically. I believe The Last A -gold Batch (if I remember correctly was around 08')Randall recd. by 'N'ew micarta company was turned back because the Popular Decorative color Did not look like it was supposed to and N-company wasn't happy with it as well, 'N'ew company told me the Chem. Restrictions have made it nearly impossible to Press for Color, so they pretty much gave up on it. Kenstix

Thank you Kenstix.

BTW, the handle is tunefink, which is knifenut spelled backwards.

Laminated brown:

Some great stuff here!

Thanks Jay ... snowshoe hike a couple of years ago in the Catskills.
Tony

I got this oldie from a Randall dealer (Dick Van Sickle) in the 1960's.

wow!!!

Steve
That is a great knife, what sheath came with it?
Almost as good as ironwood

Peter

It was a riveted sheath with leather ties, but I lost it years ago when I left it stored with my uniforms in the basement of our house in New England--a basement that flooded and rotted everything. So, I bought a new sheath from the Randall shop sometime in the 1970's.

Steve

Excellent looking Low S with Brown Micarta. Good to see you have kept it all these years.

Steve, That is just a great RMK the low S really tps it off, can't think of one that i've seen that I iike more, of course am a little partial to that era...

Funny thing--I refused to buy one of these as long as they had removable Tenite handles, preferring to wait until the handles were bonded to the knife. If I had bought a Tenite, it would be worth a lot today, maybe considerably more than the brown micarta!

Thats the micarta I'm talking about the one that Steve has!

AWESOME piece Steve.....Low S, Brown Micarta, Filled hole.

Out-damn-standing!!!!!

One of these days you may find a matching split back sheath to complete the set.

I don't know about the brown low s 14 compared to a tennite, if given the choice I would prefer the brown....I sure have seen more tennites than knives like this brown with the low s call me crazy but I think the knife above is rarer than a tennite. Just saying.

Plus it's more functional!

Here some examples of Old yell & Old Brown mic.
..still crying since I sold that Old Brown' pair...

Hope they went to a good home!!! That's a heck of a pair!!
Beautiful.

Guido I would love making that 14 with brown into a user such a sweet grind on it. Plus the no hone sheath is perfect!

That would be great!
Can you suggest any specific table at BLADE where I might find one?

I had never looked at it that way--thanks for giving me a new perspective.

Guido, Do you know where the brown micarta for your pair came from? It's very nice...looks like the real deal.

Hi G !
When I bougth...5 or 6 years ago...I was told it was a special order with customer suppl material....as 30+ years old...brown micarta..!

On the Brown Micarta , The 1st. (i believe) picture of a #1 posted/ uploade in this topic is Fine weave linen on that #1. (standard handle) Steve's low - S randall has small/med weave With Flipped or Rotated grain by 90Deg. like the pictures of the brown I already uploaded. When someone says that's it ~ That's the type of old Brown , What Their saying is : They like small weave Linen/cotton & that they like the Grain Rotated (Flipped by 90d). the Colors of all these old Batches/Lots vary much. There is no Brown that will always look like steve's (even with flipped grain)When You flip/rotate the grain you get the arrowhed pattern)The said pattern look, doesn't in itself make it a Different type or more Rare special Brown (what it does is make a Prettier cut, to most ~ We cut probably 80% of it for Randalls this way) - only the Era it was made made & batch it happen to be from. To find more Sheet/Block exactly like the browns I have (or Steve's), would be a never ending needle in a haystack - it just aint like that. the reason they flipped the grain is because when they came down a 1.5 sheet for blanks they had less waste by cutting say a 1" for a slot blank than automatically using up 1.5 x 1.5" (that is the main reason most grains got flipped - now we cut alot that way to get that look. / some of them are even tri-colored if you look close up with good specs, some look brown & tan, some look brown with Darker (almost black) brown. Finally Guido's pair is standard cut (flat grain) Large weave canvas. To wind this up , The OB's can range from yellow to lighter brown inside (again these weren't decoratively preserved) What you see on they wonderful Handles are AGED. And to get the similar look like that low-S , You need to make sure the blank is cut rotated (side Lams showing) that's the key. Kenstix

I have seen many photos of 14s with handles just like the one pictured.

Its possible to copy it just takes someone who knows Micarta.

It's Easy to 'Copy' Ben (although we just call it doing a traditional build / for the OB) Knowing Micarta is Good, but if I Run out of Stock that makes that Weave Pattern (Arrowhead look ~ on flipped grain) Knowledge wont help us put that Build together if We're just plain out of Material. Generally that weave occurs on the Fine & Small ~ med lin./Cotton not many runs of Large weave Canvas produce it. Kenstix

Steve,
I've got a canteen snap that's vacant right now....
:-)Rocky

Not sure canteen type was original to the knife--seems to go with tenite screw-on version, according to catalog 16. Catalog 17 shows baby dot strap for the micarta knives. (Anyway, if I recall correctly, the knife came with a large copper riveted sheath, as shown below, so I'd prefer to try for one of those--if anywhere near reasonable in cost.)

Anyway, I have managed to obtain two riveted sheaths. The top one was made for me by Greg Gutcher, and a few years ago I bought the bottom one from Perry Miller along with an early Model 14 (but without the brown micarta handle). Unfortunately, the bottom one is not a split-back, and doesn't have the two large copper rivets at the throat which I would prefer.

Rocky pm sent.

Here's Boardriders #14 with My 80's W~house (1") Maroon Full Thru Tang. With Allig. tail (Greg) Sheath. An Instant Randall Classic

that is one BEAUTIFUL knife!

...and the sheath is pretty awesome, too!

I second that Emotion

Old brown micarta at work to use and abuse

You get into the Capt.'s stash ??

Mike,
He did not. I still have my "stash"!
Best, Capt. Chris

Funny to me we use this stuff for everything. Need something firm to use as anvil? Tool handle wore out and broke, just make handle.

See so much would never consider Randall with same.

We call it phenolic. Read thread and can see why no longer made. Guy cutting may as well be doing asbestos and we warned vapours from too hot grind cause siezure of heart stop.

So as not to hijack a sellers thread I'll post a few brown micarta pix here. Sorry for the quality. They are my insurance photos.

Looks like Royal Flush to me Tom!!!

NICE Tom!!!

Here is a #15 with brown micarta I was told by Gary was customer supplied.

Here's a #14 with brown micarta that was Shop supplied.

This thread has been very interesting but also a bit confusing for me. RMK is currently making knives with ivorite, black, green and maroon micarta, right? I assume that these types of micarta are still being made so is the reference above about no longer being made to some other type of material? Really interesting how many different looks you get with the brown micarta depending on the "recipe" and the orientation and so forth.

There is also the red/blue micarta available from the shop, but it is not in the catalog. I don't believe it is available on some of the larger knives, but don't quote me on that.
Other micartas and G10 are available as customer or dealer supplied "custom wood" with an additional fee for fitting the customer supplied material. There is a listing on what size the material must be for the particular knives. A dealer can help you with the right size material for a particular knife if you are interested
There are also canvas, linen and paper micartas that have different grains too

Peter

Here is question for the Micarta Experts here. Does anyone know what brand or manufacturer the shop currently uses for thier Micarta? oldguy

Mr Westinghouse invented stuff early last century. His company sold rights to International Paper, who then divest including American plant in Iowa (?), maybe mid 1980 to Norplex. The are only supply of genuine Micarta and have opened plants in far east/China I think. Probable I must come back and edit after looking.

For Clarification

p.s. ~ Alot of Education came to Me from People in the Professional Plastics business for 30 - 40 years and from continually dropping off samples and Cross-Referecing ALL Micartas. ( because hardly Anyone in the Sporting world knew what they were talking about in regards to micarta + Still dont , because they couldn't hear and most still cant.

I could Actually type all of the W_H Decorative Catalog numbers into this Message Field , but I just dont see a Real Good reason to

Kenstix

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