Musk Ox Handle Shrink?

I noticed this one on Ebay... it looks like the musk ox scales have shrunk compared to the knife frame.

Is musk ox horn prone to a good bit of shrink?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Randall-Knife-Knives...a#ht_500wt_1154

Mitchell,

I reviewed your post with my nephew Bill who is an accomplished knifemaker himself. He claims that both scales were most likely patterned, sanded and drilled off the knife, and later assembled with the mosaic pins. There are several clues that lead him to this conclusion looking at the photos. He does acknowledge that this material will shrink to some small degree if not properly dried and stabilized.

Tune,
I have had 4 musk ox handled Triatheletes shrink. One of them 3...count them...3 times! Musk Ox has to cure. Some of the first batches of the stuff was dried, stabilized, etc. cut properly and approved by the shop and installed. Very few problems occured...but some did occur. It's the nature of a natural material.
Gene Beal has re-handled all of mine, or reduced the blade stock slightly on others to correct the problem. I strongly recommend folks be patient with musk ox. There are quantities coming into the lower 48 that have recently been killed. Some has been sent still bloody! That musk ox needs a "long" time to cure. I am figuring a year or more to dry it out. My buddy Duke MaCaa tried a slow oven, very cool temperature...to no avail. Time cures...plain and simple. I have to disagree with "Harry" on this one. All of mine are rough cut but finished on the knife and polished out. I don't know where Jesse got his stuff. It's not one of mine. I think it just needed more time.
For what it's worth: I have not heard of complaints of "cracking" with regards to musk ox, but there have certainly been shrinkage. Caveat Emptor...You're dealing with "exotics"!!
Best, Capt. Chris

Tune, It is possible the "shrinkage" on the Ox handle shown by the excess metal exposed, could also be caused or made worse by temp. I have a slab sided pinned Ivory handled knife and each summer as the temp gets hotter the blade expands and there is more metal exposed past the handle slabs, in winter as the blade is colder it seems to contract and the handle slabs are flush with the metal tang. I have watched this occur over and over for several years as the seasons change. Perhaps this ebay knife is just going through it's summer expansion?

Yea Griff, I have a fossil ivory Griffin Drop Point that seems to move around some as well. This one looked pretty substantial.

I don't have any experience with the Musk Ox and I didn't know how much the stabilization process "stableized" it.

One of these days I am going to get a APFK handled in Musk Ox.

Hi All, I rehandled these knives for Jesse 2 or 3 years ago. He is a pretty nice guy and has not made a complaint or made me aware the knives had a problem. The material had been cured in my shop for over a year and the handles were shaped on the knife after assembly. I do everything I can to remedy shrinkage including curing and stabilizing, but you never can tell what natural materials are going to do in differing temperatures and humidities. It is the nature of the beast. As I do with all of my knives especially those I hand build from scratch these knives have a lifetime warranty, under normal use. I have let Jesse know, after I saw them on ebay, that I will fix them free of charge, I will extend the warranty to anyone who buys them from Jesse.

I personally have had 3 musk ox handle scales put on Randall knives, 2 triathletes and 1 10-3 all done by Gene Beal and all 3 have shrunk, bowed up or cracked badly.
As stated in another post this stuff really needs to dry out a LONG time before you try to use it and it must be stabalized after it is totally dried out.
I am personally advising customers, who ask about the stuff on knives that I am having done for them as a dealer, not to use it.
I have seen and heard of too many problems with it..
Stuff that is properly dried out and correctly stabalized seem to do well, but how do you know that it has been done properly?
IMO what has happened is that it came on the market about 3 years ago as the new HOT item for handles and the demand for the properly prepaired stuff far exceeded the amount available.
So dealers in the raw material started putting the stuff out there before it was ready to be used and the problems started.
That is my personal opinion.
This stuff is VERY expensive material to use on handles and it really makes me sick when I see a handle that is all shrunken up or bowed up or cracked beyond repair.
Then the material that is more expensive than ivory usually has to be replaced with another material.
I know because I had 3 of them that I had to do that with.
So, just beware if you're going to use this material.
Best, Greg Gutcher

Guys, The knives you have talked about so far are slab type handles if I am correct. My question is , do the hidden tang style handles have these problems? I was debating on buying one that I seen for sale. Thanks, Jimmy

The standard kives with musk ox have been known to shrink as well. Caveat Emptor.
Best, Capt. Chris
PS: It's the same story with snakewood or ivory...CCS

In reference to exotic knife handle material, has anyone used
oosic?

Charles
RKS #5795

I have but I believe it is now on the "no-can-do" list at the Randall shop.
Best, Capt. Chris

Charles, OOsic works well but it is very noxious to work with. The Randall shop will not use the material because of the "dust" in the air during the handling process.

Thanks for the info. Capt., are you going to be at the Gun and Knife show this weekend?


Charles
RKS # 5795

Orlando this weekend (4th of July weekend).
AGCA in Birmingham, Al. next weekend.
Best, Capt. Chris

Capt,
This srinkage thing has gone to far!
It's o.k., as long as it happens to someone else.
Now that it's come home, I thought I would illustrate what can happen with the best of stuff.
I have encountered it on my fairly new #2.
Received this knife about a year ago.
Got the musk ox from Mark Knapp, so I know it's of good quality, and Mark said it had been stablized...
Also, do up think the shop can fix it?
I know it will not be free, as this is customer supplied.
:-)R

The shop cannot help you. It does not matter where you buy musk ox...it happens. I wait for a little over 2 years to submit the material to the Randall shop. That is why these orders are so far behind (booked out). I have better luck with the material after 2 years than sooner. It is definately a "love-hate" relationship with it. I know that Jim Behring (Treemen knives) has had some success with filling in the open ends for a couple of his customers. You may check with him.
Best, Capt. Chris

My experience with musk ox is that it WILL eventually shrink. I have a Treeman knife with a nice piece of musk ox and it has shrunk over the past couple years. Sent it back and they filled in the gap with 2-ton epoxy......other than re-handling and using a different material, I think it's the best fix available.

Unfortunately, if you have a musk ox handled knife.....be prepared to be a little disappointed.....I think it's inevitable.

Maybe I should get mine out and have a look at them? Last time I looked all was well.

I think the best any dealer or any individual selling a knife can do is make the potential buyer aware of the potential pitfalls with the exotic handle materials.


I think I will stick with Stag, Micarta and woods that have an extremely reliable track record.


For Captain Chris:

Will the RMK Shop accept a RMK for handle replacement for a failed CW handle even if the shop installed the original material and the customer agrees to pay 100% of the costs?

Yes they will. They will not replace handles for frivolous reasons.
Best, Capt. Chris

Capt. Chris,

Thanks for the reply. That is good news. I don't have a dog in this hunt but I think that is a valuable piece of info for those that have been affected now and in the future.

AND.... it must be a catastrophic failure not merely a small crack or slight shrinkage.

Let me extend a helping hand and offer to take this off your hands so you don't have to worry about it shrinking anymore. Just box it up and send it to me in Kalifornia. I'll even send you pictures of it from time to time so you can see if the handle has shrunk anymore On a serious note, that's too bad, musk ox handles on Randalls look great.

Dan Snyder
RKS #5537
SHAG #010

I have seen this shrunk on buffalo horn knives to. Not Randalls but other knives. :-)

The shop rehandled a 25 for me and did a fantastic job.

I've had both my 25-5 and 27 N25 both shrink and took them back to the shop, (i have an in), filled both with superglue and now they both have shrunk again...oh well...

---DW---

Folks,
I was out of touch for a day, however thanks for all the kind words, and advice.
I don't think it's the end of the world, however was kind of asking, just to know. People who look at it do not notice.
I bought two blocks from Mark. The other is now where I store my knives, and will remain there for a while. It's coated, and I'm thinking that I may sand of the coating to allow it do what ever it is going to do, and just see what happens.
:-)R

There are some things with this Musk Ox issue that just don't add up.

If the stuff has been through the stabilization process it shouldn't need to be coated for storage because the stabilization process is supposed to take care of the drying out issues, it's also supposed to prevent shrinkage. I have a feeling the folks that are stabilizing this stuff are learning as they go because if you read some of the technical aspects of the stabilization process, the process should totally prevent shrinkage. Bottom Line: It all doesn't add up.

Tom,
I think your right....learn as you go.
Mark was fairly discriptive of some of the problems, however there may be more, as time goes on.
Still a great looking handle
:-)Rocky

Rocky,

I think it accurate to say that the vast majority of experience with the stabilization process has been with wood, and unexpected problems still crop up with wood. Musk Ox has been around for such a short amount of time, a year maybe two is probably the most experience anyone has. My intuition tells me that a material like Musk Ox should be left to dry naturally before it is stabilized, just like wood.

It is a magnificent looking material

Rick,

Do you think this would qualify for handle replacement??

Tom,
Wow... that's bad for sure. Of course most folks know that Snakewood is an extremely dense hardwood that can crack if not cared for properly. As we have discussed, any natural handle material is subject to cracking but that particular piece of Snakewood certainly looks like it was exposed to some radical changes in heat and/or humidity. That's one of the reasons the stuff isn't guaranteed, you can't control what the customer does with it.

That would be about as good a reason as any for me to want to stay as far away from Snakewood as I do from Musk Ox. What'd you do with that knife Tom, take it in the sauna with you, and then go running out and roll around in the snow with it afterwards

Michael, Tom didn't do it. He didn't own the knife. Its a crying shame though because I had that knife in my collection for a year and a half before I sold it and it was flawless when it left here.
Tom, I apologize for not addressing your original question. Yes, that handle indeed qualified for a replacement handle. Of course you knew that as it was replaced some time ago. Oops... we seem to have gotten off the topic of Musk Ox shrinking.

Rick,

My question was in regards to how significant a material crack had to be to qualify for replacement through the RMK Shop. Your reply was:


I was simply trying to define what might be considered a catastrophic failure and I feel confident that this is valuable information for anyone who might submit a piece of CW for handle material and it is just as important for them to know what the repercussions are if problems develop, and what their options might be and at what cost. Musk Ox material certainly applies here as that is the main theme of this thread but the same can be said of any customer supplied exotic handle material.

If you think some of these issues should be continued in a new thread that's fine and quite possibly appropriate cause there is more to come. I think a lot more needs to be said about the reliability of some of the less familiar and newer exotic handle like Musk Ox.

Rick,

Where the knife originated is immaterial. I deliberately cropped the photo in such a manner so it would be impossible to know which Randall model it was.

Tom,

I'm sure it's fine if you'd like to talk about handle failure and replacement. However, the shop defines what handles they will replace not me or you. If you have a knife with a cracked handle you can send it to the shop. If they determine that the handle warrants replacement you will receive a quote before the work is done.




You already know the handle on that Skinner was replaced by the shop therefore you knew the answer before you asked the question. Perhaps your image could be more helpful if it were used to illustrate the condition of a particular handle that was accepted by the shop for replacement. Once again, the shop does the final assessment.