RMK sheath research project

Hi everyone
Over the past several years there has been discussion and debate about the sheaths in the transition years between 1960-1962. The main part of debate was what features indicate a Heiser RMK stamped sheath, and what features indicate a Maurice Johnson RMK stamped sheath.
Without verifiable proof, there are many well thought out and researched theories.
So much has been put into the stamp orientation, male keeper placement, tooled edge etc. Perhaps this project can put us closer to knowing who made what.
I would like to propose a research project that requires participation, and does not require debate and speculation.
The project has to do simply with the style or font of the number that the sheath maker used when stamping the sheath for model and size.
This project is ONLY limited to those sheaths in the Heiser/Maurice Johnson era.
Here are my findings so far.
All of the sheaths in my small collection that fall in this range are Heiser. All of these sheaths are number stamped with what I call "old style" font. The Johnson baby dot sheaths that I have seen used a different font for the stamp. One I call a "new style" number stamp.
Study the Heiser numbers, and the Johnson baby dot numbers, and you will clearly see the different shape of the numbers.
The findings I have are based on the several RMK stamped sheaths that were posted on the previous 2 threads, Heiser vs Johnson 1&2, and the ebay listings of late.

These are my observations:
1) All Heiser sheaths have old style numbers
2) All West facing RMK stamp sheaths have old style numbers
3) All Horizontal RMK stamp sheaths have old style numbers
4) All East facing stamp sheaths have (a) no numbers or (b) new style numbers.

Note. My limited research has found
1) No West facing stamp sheaths without numbers
2) No horizontal stamp sheaths without numbers
3) Only East facing stamp sheath without numbers.

I think this can be a very interesting project, and with all the sheaths in your collections to look at, maybe we can come closer to understanding the history of these sheaths.

If you find anything to contradict my findings, please post pictures of them. If your findings are in line with mine, let us know. We are attempting to find out if there is a common thread that distinguishes these early RMK stamped sheaths from one another.

If anyone has any ideas to further expand the criteria for this project let me know.

So please get out those early RMK stamped sheaths, look at those number stamp styles, and let us know what you find.

One last thing. Let's please contain this thread only to the facts of the research. Findings are all we are interested in at this point.
Let's have some fun!

Thanks Capt Chris for the update and response from Mr Wright. Look forward to more of that interview.
As I stated in my first post, this isn't about center snaps, brown buttons or anything other than the number styles on what sheaths. If you have evidence of sheath number configurations other than what I listed in my first post, I am interested in seeing them.
Please guys, let's not continue the Heiser vs Johnson debate on this thread. This one is about the style number fonts on what sheaths. Information gathering is what this thread is about.
Please keep the debate on the Heiser vs Johnson 2 thread.
Thanks

Sam,
I moved my latest findings, but had thought there may be interest in the fact that I have Horizontal sheath stamped Johnson sheaths with no numbers and some other quirks.
...to be continued,
Capt. Chris

Yes Capt, the RMK sheaths with the different stamp and number orientations.
Look forward to it. I am not trying to prove one theory or the other, just trying to ascertain what's out there to get a clearer picture.
Thanks.

I haven't attached photos in awhile, so I will try here.
This attachment illustrates the "new style" plain numbers I am referring to.
Look closely at the straightness of the 7.

These 2 photos illustrate the "old style" numbers. Notice the turn up at the bottom right end of the number 2, and the turn down on the top left of the number 7.
The number styles on these two images are different than the straight style on the previous image in my last post.

Here is another photo of an " old style" number font. See how the 3 is flat across the top? The Heiser stamped number 3 is like this.

This image is of a "new style" number 3 number stamp. Notice how the 3 is rounded on the top?
The 6 has a different shape too. The top "tail" if you will of the old style number dips down towards the circle part of the number.

Sam that is called a serif font

Thanks Joe. And here is a definition of a serif font.
" A serif is a small stroke projecting from the main stroke of a character."

I have noticed that there are some "serifs" projecting from the number 1 on the "new style" number stamps, but they are shaped differently than the "old style" serifs. The old style kind of dip down, and the new style go straight out.
I decided to use old style, new style terminology because the older Heisers (40's and 50's) display this style, and the newer (60's on) Johnson baby dot sheaths display the new style without serifs.
Again these are my findings. I am very interested to learn if there are any varying examples out there.
What I find very interesting so far is that:
1) Every West facing stamp that I have observed has the old style serif number font
2) Every Horizontal facing stamp that I have observed has an old style serif number font
3) Every East facing stamp that I have observed has a new style number font.
Joe, I know you have an extensive collection, so if there are any exceptions to this, please post them. I just find it curious that I have not found any variations to this. Of course my observation is limited to only a couple hundred sheaths, but I thought that a large enough number of sheaths to establish a pattern.

Sam,

Great idea! Thanks for heading up this study. I don't have any sheaths that fall into this category, but I mentioned the number style in another sheath thread. My comment was based on two knives that were on eBay. Both sheaths have number styles that are consistent with your initial findings.

Thanks Tom. This is exactly what I am referring to. You posted a great example of what I am finding.
Note also that the serif (thanks for the correct term Joe) on the number 1 on the RMK west facing stamp angles down a bit, as the Heiser stamped number serifs do.
I have seen examples of the number 1 on east facing stamps, but they tend to be straight out. I will find an example and post it.

Tom,
Here is an example of what I am referring to with the "new style" serif.
Notice the serif (projection out to the left at the top of the number 1) is straight out. Also note that the number 3 on this sheath has a rounded top, as apposed to the flat top on the top of 3's on the "old style" number serifs on the Heiser stamped sheaths.
Tom, In the examples that you posted above, the number 2 on the Heiser stamped sheath is exactly as they appear on the West facing sheaths that I have found.
Note the example in this post is an east facing sheath too.

Sam, hopefully, others will chime in with their findings and we'll see if there is any crossover. Fun study!

I am counting on it Tom.
I may be wrong, but I don't think this particular subject has been discussed in a research thread before.
I think it may have been mentioned in passing, some part of the detail, but not in an out and out research project.
What better way to determine the truth about it than to engage everyone possible who has these sheaths in their possession.
Ebay is another good way to find examples too, as usually in the photos they show the back of the sheath.

As an additional observation, I have observed horizontal RMK stamped sheaths with no numbers on these early sheaths, one was an example in Sheldon's book.I don't have the book with me, will post it later. I think it was placed horizontally because there was no room for vertical placement.
Capt Chris mentioned a horizontal RMK stamped sheath earlier. Is this the case Capt Chris, or is that stamp on a standard sheath where there is plenty of room either way.
Again, I am not saying that they are not out there, that's why we are doing this project, to see if they are common. This project may determine if the sheath maker was consistent with the way he or she oriented the stamp.

Sam

Here is a pinned Brown Micarta Model 5 with a Heiser sheath. Don't know if you can clearly discern the numbers or not.

My guess it is around a 1960's knife.

Hi Rod
Thanks for the post and picture. I can't quite make out the number type on it. Is it the old style serif number stamp, or the newer style number stamp?
Can you post a clearer picture of it?
Thanks

Sam

Give me a few hours. I will post a better pic before I go to bed tonight.

Sam

In the middle of painting. Got to wait for some to dry, so here is a quick pic of the sheath stamp.

Let me know if you want more pics.

Thanks Rod. Good example of a Heiser with the Old style serif number stamps.

Here is the example of a horizontal sheath that I was referring to in Sheldon's book. Page 111. Its oriented horizontally IMO because of space restrictions. Notice also the model number is up at the top, above the ring, new style font.

Sam, All of these are brown button sheaths with Randall stamps.

Sam,

The picture from Sheldon's book is an 80's sheath...... not valid for your data set.

Mitchell -

2nd sheath from the bottom, the #1appears to have been done with a different stamp than the others.

Maybe, or I thought it could just be a light strike.......

Thanks Mitch. All of your pictures fall exactly in line with my findings.
Joe, see how the serif on the number 1 on that sheath you mentioned is angled down? It is in line with the old style serif number stamp.
As I mentioned before, I have seen the new style number stamp with a serif, but only straight, not angled Like the Heiser sheaths display.
Thanks Mitch for dating that pancake flipper sheath, it illustrates my point that horizontal orientation without numbers, or with new style number stamp is possible, but my findings have only seen them when it was a fit issue.

if it was a light strike, he sure made up for it on the 8!

Light or not, it looks like a different #1 stamp to me than the others, as does the #1 stamp on the center sheath of the three knives posted in the other thread. These two appear to be similar or the same stamp.

Photo from Sam's post at top of page.

Pancake Sheath

Thanks Buck.
Yes, this is the pancake flipper sheath that Mitch said is from the 80's. It displays a horizontal RMK stamp with new style numbers at the top.
It illustrates my point that there are horizontal stamps with new style number stamps, but the RMK stamp appears to be oriented in that way because of fit restrictions.
Standard west or horizontal stamp sheaths seem to all display the old style serif number stamps, as seen on every Heiser sheath that I have seen.
Thanks for all of the contributions in this research. Hopefully it continues, and if there are exceptions to these findings, please post them so we can continue to learn about these sheaths.

Also, if you go thru your collection and there are no exceptions, let us know that.
How many sheaths that you have that fall in this early time frame. This way we can get a sense of how common or uncommon the exceptions are.

Sam, check out this one...

Very interesting observation Tom. That 3 definitely displays a bit more rounded shape. Definitely not flat, but not high rounded like the new style displays. Notice that it also displays the serif like the old style serif number stamps do.
The new style number stamp seen on RMK east facing Johnson baby dot sheaths are plain without the serif. With the exception of the number 1 new style number stamp. It displays a straight out to the left serif, whereas the Heiser stamped, and West and Horizontal RMK stamped sheaths, on the number 1 stamp, display an angled down serif on the left top of the number.
Great find, so now we have found a slightly different old style number font shape associated with a Heiser stamp.
Thanks Tom

samg -for my personal understanding; can you put forth your hypothesis with regards to numeral style stamps?

Your hypothesis is imperative, lest we all chase stamp styles down a rabbit hole. Thank you.

Sam, also notice the 6. It looks identical to the new style 6.

My hypothesis is, with all the photo evidence that I have observed, is that in the period from approx 1960-1982,(I used the date 1982 because on page 154 Pete Hamilton lists Maurice Johnson as RMK sheath maker to that year, and extending that date range gives ample examples, though my focus is primary 1960-1964 or so) to include brown button and baby dot sheaths, my hypothysis, or theory is that:

1) West and Horizontal RMK stamped sheaths exhibit the old style serif number fonts as seen on Heiser stamped sheaths.

2) East facing RMK stamped sheaths exhibit the new style font number stamp found on all Johnson baby dot sheaths.

3) RMK stamped sheaths without number stamps are East facing.

I am not proposing who made what at this point, as that is a rabbit hole that has been stuffed with a beat dead horse!
This thread is to gather examples. Thus far I have only observed examples listed above, and would like to see if there are any examples that don't fit that mold.
And again, if you don't have any examples that don't fit into the category listed above, let me know that, as well as how many sheaths you have that fit into that time frame.
Hope this helps

Good point Tom, they are difficult to tell apart.
Look at the Heiser 12-9 posted, The 9 and 6 were probably the same stamp.
The closed numbers like the 0,6,8,9 are difficult to tell. Though the 6 is not totally closed, its close.
It seems that the straighter, open numbers that have definite end points have the obvious serif.
Thanks Tom

samg -that is not a hypothesis, in fact, what you stated is nearly self-evident (with random anomalies).

So then, this is but an exercise to what end?

To what end?
To my knowledge this thread is one that has not been discussed before. A dedicated subject of stamp numbers,their specific style,applications, and trying to determine if there are any variations to what my observations are.
To what end? To see if my observations have distinct variations. So we are all a little more knowledgeable for it.
Had you observed or considered this subject before?

I, as a collector, certainly have -but as much as there are endless variances in all hand-made items -I found it to be immaterial, to the whole.

Sincerely I say, good luck in your endeavor. I must state, for the record, I'm awaiting the "a-ha moment."

I agree, there are always variations in handmade items, I know this perfectly well as I make wooden musical instruments by hand, and not one has been identical.

I think you are making my point in mentioning endless variables. I would agree, but I have not found that to be the case. What I have found thus far is a consistant, intentioned orientation of stamps that have consistent serif number stamps associated with them. No "endless variables" as you correctly put is as it should be. Why don't we see:
1) East facing RMK stamped sheaths with old style serif number stamps, or
2) West OR horizontal facing RMK stamped sheaths without number stamps, or with new number style stamps?

That, to me would be "endless variations". As it is,at this early point, I see NO variation from those observations. I am looking for them.
Capt Chris mentioned that he has some, so we will see.

As to an a-ha moment, this is not the place for that. Remember that rabbit hole you spoke of? I have no intention of going down it.
This thread is dedicated to finding those " endless variables" you mentioned.

.2 here.

Evidenced by the limited photographic record so far, Hesier/HKL used different stamps. One style is far and away the majority, but they did use other stamps nevertheless. They may be anomalies as suggested by Rigid54, but other stamps were available.

Johnson may have used different stamps also. It seems that is the case to this point.

Joe,
"Johnson used different stamps" meaning different stamps in the new style font, correct? I ask because I don't see any evidence of old style serif number stamps in any of the baby dots that Johnson made at this point.

riginally Posted By: crutchtip
Maybe MJ had more than one set of stamps for numbers like he had two sewing machines. .


Joe, you mentioned in your earlier post about Johnson maybe had more than 1 set of number stamps, perhaps saying he may have had old style serif number stamps and new style stamps. If this is the case and he perhaps randomly used them, there must be horizontal or west facing new style number sheaths right? Your thought is logical, I would just like to see evidence of it.
Thanks

How many times are you going to quit this thread Joe?????

touche

Just breaking your balls man..... I wish you wouldn't quit.

Seriously, looking at some of the blade and sheath stamp information that has come about in the past two years is good stuff.

I do not have the "gene" like you, Ron, Sam, and even Jack for teasing this stuff out.... honestly, it just does not impact my collecting decisions. However, I do keep an eye on these threads and add it to my understanding of Randalls.

There are some powerful personalities at work here.....I hope these new discussions stay on the positive.

Thanks to all that have contributed.

Ditto, X 2

Thanks Mitch and Michael
It was my intention with this thread to use it as a research tool to find the variables as rigid54 was talking about. It just struck me as strange that there are no variables so far when it comes to the relationship between the RMK stamp and the type of number stamp.
So my question becomes, we see a variety of stamp orientations in those early RMK sheath years, west,horizontal,east. Yet we don't see new style number stamps on ANY west or horizontal RMK early bb sheaths, nor do we see ANY old style serif stamps on any of the east facing RMK stamped sheaths,none of them, from brown button times to 1982 when MJ retired. So it appears that MJ only had one style, the new style number stamp.
Joes point that Heiser and MJ may have had more than 1 set of number stamps is very plausible, but it doesn't appear that they had more than one style number stamp.I say that because I don't see evidence of MJ using an old style serif stamp from baby dot times, what 18 years? That is long enough to establish a pattern, just as Heiser did in their 20 or so year relationship with Randall.
So that begs the question, if Maurice Johnson made any West or Horizontally faced sheaths, why don't we see any evidence of new style number stamps on them?

And there it is.

Rigid54, That is not an a-ha, I told you so, or there it is statement. It is simply a question prefaced with " if" and "where is the evidence, based on my observations"
Sorry to disappoint.